Very antique key and lock related

VtCollects

I was wondering why there isn’t an antique key cutter (key machine) section, or is it alright to post those pictures and questions in the Antique Key area? I have a Keil New York No. 3 - 3 1\2 key machine that is a work of machinist’s art and it is from the early 20th century.

There aren’t many pictures of the real thing on the Internet as far as I can tell. There is one place where you can find a picture that came from the manual, more than likely, to be able to identify the machine you have, but sometimes those aren’t definitive as I have seen one machine that stumped me.

I know that you probably have to be a locksmith in some locales to even own these old machines, but they are worth collecting and sometimes they can be had dirt cheap compared to the locks that these machines made (make) keys for. Let’s keep the old ways alive, and show those pictures.

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Good idea but like all good ideas they have to start somewhere. You were absolutely right to post in the miscellaneous section to start with – if the topic takes of then yes a sub section could be devoted to it. There are many antique key cutters out there (me included) and it could be a fascinating exploration.

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Many of the old ways and methods are slowly disappearing from living memory making it very difficult to understand how things used to be done. I remember as a boy the key machine in our shop was a very crude affair. Lateral and transverse actions being transmitted by cables which seemed always in need of replacement!

VtCollects

I actually own a Keil New York Model no. 3 ½ (With cabinet), but when I went to add a picture with this post I found that I hadn’t taken any myself. I will be getting some pictures in the near future though.

I have seen some old machines come up on Craig’s List here in the States and I have seen some just plain curious machines that I couldn’t identify. Maybe too many parts were missing, or it had been “modified” for some reason which leads to the confusion.

The hard part is coming up with a real picture to verify your suspicions if you are really close to an ID, but just can’t see it from an illustration some ad people did in the 1920s.

Pschiffe

I’d be interested in seeing an image of your Keil 3-½. There is a paid membership website, Simon-Says.com; that has some information on Keil Nos. 0, 1, 1-½, 4, 4-½, 6, 6-½, 7, 7-½, 9, 9-½, 10, 10-½, 13, 15 & 15-½ but alas no 3 or 3-½. Note that the ½ suffix in Keil nomenclature denotes a key machine mounted on a board with motor whereas the lack of the ½ indicates the basic key machine only sans motor.

Pete Schifferli
Tonawanda, NY

Pschiffe

Brian Morland wrote
Many of the old ways and methods are slowly disappearing from living memory making it very difficult to understand how things used to be done. I remember as a boy the key machine in our shop was a very crude affair. Lateral and transverse actions being transmitted by cables which seemed always in need of replacement!

That Mancuna machine is much like the bit and flat key end of the old Ilco Improved Minute. An updated version is still made in Japan by Watayoshi, the Steel King SK1. Sold in the US by mbaUSA @ $1,725.00, see image attached.

Pete Schifferli
Tonawanda, NY

[unknown]

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Not exactly very old, vintage rather than antique, but thought it might be of interest. It must have been very boring cutting keys with this!!!

Tom Gordon

Tell us more about that little beauty Brian?!

Brian Morland MLA Hon

It’s a Kromer key cutting machine, made by T&H (Tschudin & Heid AG), supplied to Tann by Kromer when they got heavily into their locks.

You couldn’t put that in the back of the van!

Paul Prescott

Wounder what became of it, I assume given it’s complexity that it would cut the protector lock keys ?

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Both the X and Y axis are different for the protector to say nothing of the angled cuts etc then its highly unlikely, not sure that Tann used the protector? This machine is undoubtedly just for the Novum.

Lin

VtCollects wrote
I actually own a Keil New York Model no. 3 ½ (With cabinet), but when I went to add a picture with this post I found that I hadn’t taken any myself. I will be getting some pictures in the near future though.

I have seen some old machines come up on Craig’s List here in the States and I have seen some just plain curious machines that I couldn’t identify. Maybe too many parts were missing, or it had been “modified” for some reason which leads to the confusion.

The hard part is coming up with a real picture to verify your suspicions if you are really close to an ID, but just can’t see it from an illustration some ad people did in the 1920s.

I own a Keil #8 key cutting machine. Serial #94. Any idea of it’s value?

[unknown]

Pschiffe

Lin wrote
I own a Keil #8 key cutting machine. Serial #94. Any idea of it’s value?

Can you post an image? I’m familiar with Nos. 6, 7, 9 & 10 but not No. 8.

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

Lin

I will try to get a picture to you by the end of the week.

VtCollects

Shortly after I started this post, and last replied to it my life took a nasty turn and I haven’t really been in the real world. Yeah, the things we go through can have a jarring affect that lasts long after the initial point of impact.

So, I still haven’t taken the pictures, but I will as soon as I can and get them up here. I haven’t seen much on Craig’s List lately of a key machine nature so I haven’t purchased any. I have been looking for keys and locks as I remember, but I haven’t really seen any of those locally either.

I did pick up an old cabinet for free that used to be a safe cabinet, but now it’s just a beat up heavy cabinet that I have to restore. All I have is pictures of the name plate and the opposite door latching mechanism that has been vandalized. Well, it has been taken apart at one point because the former owner was probably looking for a steel bar to make into something.

That’s all for now. 🙂-:

Lin

I know what you mean about life’s crazy threads. Went to a party on a December afternoon and came home to find my husband had passed while I was gone. Sooooooo life is a little crazy here.

Pschiffe

Here is an image of the Keil NY No. 8 turret machine with six cutters for duplicating flat & bit keys. This image was taken for Laurie Simon’s website simon-says.net. I would say that this machine is extremely rare and thus difficult to place a value upon. I know that their No. 6, which has similar functionality and is much more common; is favored by some locksmiths and I’ve seen them for selling for $500.00 or more depending upon condition, image also attached. Note that the ½ suffix after the model numbers indicates key machine mounted on a board with motor.

Pete Schifferli

goldpro

Here’s a few pics of oldtimers we have at the shop. Both are Ilco I think. We still use the turret and just had the .045 cutter sharpened. I hope to restore and upgrade the bit key part of the other machine with leadscrews, dial indicators, and some sort of swiveling key vise. Tom

Pschiffe

goldpro wrote
Here’s a few pics of oldtimers we have at the shop. Both are Ilco I think. We still use the turret and just had the .045 cutter sharpened. I hope to restore and upgrade the bit key part of the other machine with leadscrews, dial indicators, and some sort of swiveling key vise. Tom

Images 1-4 are of the Ilco 2196K (Keil 6-½) turret machine with four cutters for flat and bit keys, one side milling cutter for wards and one cutter for cylinder keys.
Ilco acquired Keil in the 1930s and some identical machines were marketed under both brands. Scroll down to my post of 3-13-13 below for more information on this machine.

Images 5-6 are of the Ilco 179IM Improved Minute for cylinder keys, flat steel keys (both side and end cuts) and bit keys (all pass, lever and ward cuts).
We have an even earlier version of the machine in our shop, c1930s, see image attached.

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

goldpro

Thanks for that info Pete. Here’s a few pics of another old Ilco code machine I’m going to try to rig up with dial indicators and the sloting cutter to do flat steel keys by measurements from the old locks we get coming in to have keys fitted. We have lots of dials and vise jaw inserts for this one. I think some of the inserts fit the minute machine also as the jaws seem to be similar. The whole vise/dial carriage tilts down so you can clamp the key easier as shown in the pic. I think machines like this were popular before the HPC came along. I think we have several cutters for it that also can be used on a HPC blitz. On the original wood base with tag. Another classic I’d like to see working again with some custom modifications. Tom