Krenkle lock (sp?)

2buy1 · 2010-12-06T20:04:14+00:00

I’m trying to find out about this type of lock mechanism. I had one installed in Marvin Safe years ago. This is the flat key that is discretely inserted and then the knob will open the safe. Any links or information regarding this would be greatly appreciated. Jim

Doug MacQueen

There where many safe locks that used flat keys and knobs with most of them coming in the 1850’s. And quite a few of them were of the type that the knob had to been turned first before the key could be inserted. Typically they were flat keys much like a push key but the cuts were vertically on the blade instead of on the end. The one with the cover removed is one that I do have some info on. Can you take pics of the other with the cover off and I’ll see if I can ID it. And I do have a picture of a Krenkel safe if I can find it.

2buy1

Doug, Please see attached images. This is the only one of these that I’ve ever seen that has notches on both sides of the flat key and further has an independent rotating part that prevents forcing of the handle. As you’re probably aware I’m very interested in acquiring a complete safe but I am not certain what I would be asking for on the wanted forum? That said all the ones I’ve seen have a cast iron rasied floral design that conceals the key hole slot. Thanks again for any additional info, Jim

Doug MacQueen

Unfortunately I haven’t any info on that lock. In the trade the key would be described as a double sided flat lever lock key. The lock style basically disappeared by the 1870’s based on my patent searches. Today we have what locksmiths call a key in knob lock but yours would be called something like “double sided lever key AND knob”. The only other two opposing lever key locks with flat keys from that period that I know off are the Krenkel Maurer and a simpler version supposed to used by Marvin. Your other lock is listed as a Wilder by both the Mossmann Collection and the Lock Museum. And I haven’t found a patent for it either. Doug

2buy1

Doug, Thanks again for the info. I’ll place a request on the wanted board but I’m not optimistic! Jim

Bob Longo

2buy1 wrote
Doug, Thanks again for the info. I’ll place a request on the wanted board but I’m not optimistic! Jim

Jim/Doug,
I’m hoping you can help me out. Due to a flood in my basement I had to take down some walls in my basement and I found a K. Krenkel safe under my steps behind a wall. We don’t know anything about the safe except what I could search for on Google, which isn’t much. I came across this website and your posts and you seem to know the most about this safe.

I’m trying to find out more information on the safe and see what the best way to open it would be. Would any locksmith be able to open it or do I need to look for one with specific skills to open this type of safe? I have pictures I can add if you need to see.

Hope to hear from someone.
Thanks,
Bob

[unknown]

Dean Nickel

Bob Longo wrote
I’m trying to find out more information on the safe and see what the best way to open it would be. Would any locksmith be able to open it or do I need to look for one with specific skills to open this type of safe? I have pictures I can add if you need to see.

As to the part of how to open comes down to one question. Do you want it to work afterward? If the answer is yes I would suggest finding a safe tech. You can find one at:
SAVTA.org | Safe and Vault Technicians Association -

I am a locksmith full time and I refer all my safe work to a safe tech as the customer will get better service from him being he does little else. They know how to open containers two ways. One is destroy it and open. The second is open and repair. The cost is higher on the second as care and tech is needed to do a good job. I would suggest sending pics to a few and see what answers you get.

[unknown]

2buy1

Bob Longo wrote
Jim/Doug,
I’m hoping you can help me out. Due to a flood in my basement I had to take down some walls in my basement and I found a K. Krenkel safe under my steps behind a wall. We don’t know anything about the safe except what I could search for on Google, which isn’t much. I came across this website and your posts and you seem to know the most about this safe.

I’m trying to find out more information on the safe and see what the best way to open it would be. Would any locksmith be able to open it or do I need to look for one with specific skills to open this type of safe? I have pictures I can add if you need to see.

Hope to hear from someone.
Thanks,
Bob

Bob,

Dean and Doug would be the best folks I would know for advise. I’m just a collector and love the Krenkel locks and safes. Would love to see some images of yours and I’m always interested in acquiring them depending on condition. Please post some images and please don’t destroy the safe (in opening) as they are pretty uncommon.

Best, Jim

[unknown]

Doug MacQueen

What a find? A safe behind a wall. Before I start asking a ton of questions can you post some pictures, different views but especially a complete frontal shot and close up of the keyhole? Determining what lock you have, if possible, will be half the battle. And the first step toward getting it open with the least possible damage. Picking or fitting a key would be great but that is not likely to happen in this case. But with knowledge of what lock you have, a well placed hole should do it. And you are correct, this type of job requires special skills. Membership in SAVTA does not guarantee these skills, just as you should not necessarily rule out the capabilities of some (a few) locksmiths to do this type of job. Where are you located? I may know of someone in your area. Doug

Bob Longo

Halflock wrote
As to the part of how to open comes down to one question. Do you want it to work afterward? If the answer is yes I would suggest finding a safe tech. You can find one at:
SAVTA.org | Safe and Vault Technicians Association -

I am a locksmith full time and I refer all my safe work to a safe tech as the customer will get better service from him being he does little else. They know how to open containers two ways. One is destroy it and open. The second is open and repair. The cost is higher on the second as care and tech is needed to do a good job. I would suggest sending pics to a few and see what answers you get.

Dean,
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely look into SAVTA.org.
Bob

[unknown]

Bob Longo

2buy1 wrote
Bob,

Dean and Doug would be the best folks I would know for advise. I’m just a collector and love the Krenkel locks and safes. Would love to see some images of yours and I’m always interested in acquiring them depending on condition. Please post some images and please don’t destroy the safe (in opening) as they are pretty uncommon.

Best, Jim

Jim,
Thanks for the reply. Attached are some pictures - Sorry if the quality is not that good - I had to compress them so I could upload to the site.
Bob

[unknown]

Bob Longo

Doug MacQueen wrote
What a find? A safe behind a wall. Before I start asking a ton of questions can you post some pictures, different views but especially a complete frontal shot and close up of the keyhole? Determining what lock you have, if possible, will be half the battle. And the first step toward getting it open with the least possible damage. Picking or fitting a key would be great but that is not likely to happen in this case. But with knowledge of what lock you have, a well placed hole should do it. And you are correct, this type of job requires special skills. Membership in SAVTA does not guarantee these skills, just as you should not necessarily rule out the capabilities of some (a few) locksmiths to do this type of job. Where are you located? I may know of someone in your area. Doug

Doug,
Thanks for the information. The whole family is exicted over this. It’s been a great learning experience. I posted some pictures on a previous post. I’m located in central New Jersey. I look forward to any info you can provide.
Thanks,
Bob

[unknown]

2buy1

Bob Longo wrote
Doug,
Thanks for the information. The whole family is exicted over this. It’s been a great learning experience. I posted some pictures on a previous post. I’m located in central New Jersey. I look forward to any info you can provide.
Thanks,
Bob

Bob, Thanks so much for posting the images. Great safe! I’m in Bergen County, NJ and have a couple of Kenkel locks (as pictured in this thread). Mine have a completely flat key, yours appears to have the slightly curved key setup. I’ll be curious to hear what the experts have to say about the two knobs. Does the knob not associated with the key slot have any other markings around it? I’ve seen some that have both a key and combination lock setup…

Once you locate a safe tech, I’d be happy to let them look over my locks if they thought that might help. Lastly, of course, I’d be interested in buying it, should you ever want to sell it!

Fantastic safe and I’m very jealous of your find. Best, Jim

[unknown]

Dean Nickel

Doug is correct in that there is not always a tech with the right skills for something like this in your area. But being you are in the NE there is a good chance. I will talk to the safe tech or two that I know about this and see what they say is the person to talk to.

Can you take several pictures of the knobs from different angles and tell me if the one on the left turns?

Doug MacQueen

Unless I am mistaken the battle is half won. This is the patent for that lock. The knob would be roughly in the center and the key goes in below after the knob is turned. Try calling City Safe in Farmingdale, NJ. or WWW.CITYSAFE.COM. They should be able to help. Make sure to tell them you have an antique double sided lever keylock safe to open. i can possibly help them further if needed but you have to consider whether you want a working key made before the safe is opened. Since the lock is possibly buried in the door insulation and not readily accessible when the door is opened, it is possible albeit difficult and expensive to fit a key from the outside with a hole at the proper spot. There is a second easier way that will do some lock damage and will then require the lock to be removed to repair and have the key made. Doug

Bob Longo

Halflock wrote
Doug is correct in that there is not always a tech with the right skills for something like this in your area. But being you are in the NE there is a good chance. I will talk to the safe tech or two that I know about this and see what they say is the person to talk to.

Can you take several pictures of the knobs from different angles and tell me if the one on the left turns?

Here are some pictures of both knobs at different angles. The knob on the right is directly in the center of the safe. It only turns about ⅛ of the way. The knob is about ½″ off of the door. It has a screw in it.

The knob on the left is all one piece. It barely moves at all when I try to turn it. It has the number 355 imprinted on it.

[unknown]

Bob Longo

Doug MacQueen wrote
Unless I am mistaken the battle is half won. This is the patent for that lock. The knob would be roughly in the center and the key goes in below after the knob is turned. Try calling City Safe in Farmingdale, NJ. or WWW.CITYSAFE.COM. They should be able to help. Make sure to tell them you have an antique double sided lever keylock safe to open. i can possibly help them further if needed but you have to consider whether you want a working key made before the safe is opened. Since the lock is possibly buried in the door insulation and not readily accessible when the door is opened, it is possible albeit difficult and expensive to fit a key from the outside with a hole at the proper spot. There is a second easier way that will do some lock damage and will then require the lock to be removed to repair and have the key made. Doug

Doug,
Thanks for the details and the help. It’s much appreciated. I will give City Safe a call when I get a chance.
Bob

[unknown]

Bob Longo

Can you reply back to me at longo5@yahoo.com - Thanks…Bob

2buy1 wrote
Bob, Thanks so much for posting the images. Great safe! I’m in Bergen County, NJ and have a couple of Kenkel locks (as pictured in this thread). Mine have a completely flat key, yours appears to have the slightly curved key setup. I’ll be curious to hear what the experts have to say about the two knobs. Does the knob not associated with the key slot have any other markings around it? I’ve seen some that have both a key and combination lock setup…

Once you locate a safe tech, I’d be happy to let them look over my locks if they thought that might help. Lastly, of course, I’d be interested in buying it, should you ever want to sell it!

Fantastic safe and I’m very jealous of your find. Best, Jim

[unknown]

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