Sargent lock

oldbiscuit

Here’s a Sargent lock I picked up a while back on Ebay. I had read an article in the Journal of Lock Collecting where the author had a similar lock with the same markings that had square pins inside rather than round. I bought this lock locked without a key not knowing the pin type,but hoping for the rare square pins. But as my luck would have it ,they were the traditional round pins. I was able to pick the lock open and remove the internal assembly screw, dissassemble the lock, clean it,find a key blank,cut it to match the pins and reassemble it to make a working lock. I have asked the author for any information on the age of the lock as well as asking various other collectors with no results. I’ve seen this same lock with the name Sargent in raised letters across the center rather than the fancy S & CO scroll on mine. The reverse sides are the same on the scroll desing and the raised name design. Anyone out there have any info or know where to point me to look? Thanks, Mark🙁think):

Pschiffe

Your Keil 108 aftermarket key blank crosses to Sargent 265B original. This is an obscure and perhaps restricted keyway. I’m guessing your padlock may have been for a railroad application. I’ll check with the Sargent Key Records Department and see if I can get any information.

Pete Schifferli

oldbiscuit

Thanks Pete, I got the key blank in an assortment of key blanks I bought off of Ebay a couple of months back. It was a perfect fit. I was hopping to find an origional period correct Sargent key blank, but wasn’t having any luck. Still would like to know when the lock was made. I’ve searched through Sargent patents and found the lock style but nothing on the logo. Mark:o:

Dean Nickel

I may have an OEM blank from that time. I will check and get back to you.

As for the date I would guess around 1900-1920s on the account of the keyway.

Keyways are a good way to get a date range for narrowing a search.

Can you post a picture of the keyway of the lock?

oldbiscuit

Dean, here’s a picture of the keyway, hope it helps. Thanks for any info you can find. Mark

wylk

With such a fancy logo, I’ve always wondered if there are visual clues as to the ordering of the symbols. In this case the letters S, C, O, and ampersand. There are 9 reasonable combinations (I’m omitting anything that begins or ends with the ampersand). Trying each on a quick Google search, I did come up with one interesting possibility: OC&S, the Ontario, Carbondale, and Scranton railroad. See:

RAILROAD.NET • View topic - OC&S RR - Jermyn, PA?

The railroad was formed in 1888 but this lock looks much newer than that.

Another possibility is the Ordnance Center & School (check Google).

Jim

Doug MacQueen

Jim, How about "S"argent & "C"O"mpany. Oh, that that was too easy. I am surprised at you. But keep up the good work. Doug

wylk

True, Sargent & Co. is rather obvious. I was just thinking the logo was fancy enough to have been requested by a customer. But I do like the artistry that goes into these intertwined symbols. Attached is another example, from Mosler, circa 1915.

Doug MacQueen

I definitely agree with you on that point. And if Dean is correct in his dating of the padlock that style must have been in voque during that era. What do you think about the square pin version mentioned, if true? Should that lock be filed under “what were they thinking?”. Doug

Pschiffe

Doug MacQueen wrote
I definitely agree with you on that point. And if Dean is correct in his dating of the padlock that style must have been in voque during that era. What do you think about the square pin version mentioned, if true? Should that lock be filed under “what were they thinking?”. Doug

The Sargent Square Pin Cylinder was invented by Henry R. Stadtmuller of Whitneyville, CT and assigned to Sargent & Co. in 1897. This cylinder was invented to eliminate the use of “split pin masterkeying” in a masterkeyed cylinder thereby making it more pick resistant. This was accomplished by having two steps in each pin with a R.H. blade change key and an L.H. blade master key. See US Patent 588,026; Aug. 10, 1897. There are several in the collection of Lock Museum of America in Terryville, CT*. BBE (Billy B. Edwards, Jr.) has suggested that they are found only on Roman Catholic Churches. I’ve never actually seen one.

*adapted from Historical Research Series #13, June, 1984 by Thomas F. Hennessy, Curator, Lock Museum of America

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

oldbiscuit

Doug, There was an article in the Jan-Mar 2011 issue of the “Journal of Lock Collecting” by John T.Grist that went into quite the depth about the use of the square pins. Apparently Sargent used the same cylinder with the round holes that was drilled clear through and squared them out on one side. The pins could be stepped allowing for a single pin with two pin hights to allow for a master key. The key hole was wider at the bottom where the blade of the key fit and the master keys were offset apparently from the reguler keys. Actually quite the novel idea for it’s time. Unfortunatly John never mentions in his article the age of the lock, and I have tried to contact him numerous times for his oppinion with no responce. I would like to reprint the article,but the ALCA has it copywrited. Mark

Dean Nickel

From the info I have gained from a few older locksmiths they said it came out around 1930s and lasted a about 10 years and then slowly slipped into the backwaters of time. I know of one person that has a pin kit but he is unwilling for me to go and get data from it so I kinda question the fact of the contents of the kit. It is marked that it is a square pin kit from the one time I noticed it in his shop.:=(: I have a cylinder in my collection… I will have to find it and do a picture shoot of it.:8):

Still looking for the blank….. so many boxes of blanks. I need to get rid of a few.

If Billy doesn’t post in on this I will have to write him and ask.

oldbiscuit

Thanks Dean, I’m still thinking it’s from the twenties maybe early thirties but I could be all wrong. Hopefully Billy will check in and give his input on it also. It would be interesting to see what your key dating comes up with. Mark

Doug MacQueen

Dragged kicking and screaming into a discussion about a square pinned padlock. Who would have thunck it. No offense meant. OK, so it sounds like a stepped wafer lock as far the master/ change key way is concerned, which in turn enlarges the picking area. Which in turn generally increases picking odds. Its been a long time but is that Sargent “U” keyway? Not the most difficult keyway in regards to picking, so if thats the keyway that was used, I’d say the square pin idea was on the whole, a waste of time and most likely a selling point. Now that is just the opinion of a former locksmith, but obviously it is a great find as a collectable and an interesting bit of pin tumbler history. As to John’s article, the patent (s) are always available. Doug

oldbiscuit

Doug, you’re right, it would pretty darn easy to pick a square pin cylinder,especially if it had the wider keyway. However I would think that back in those days,outside of locksmiths, there probably weren’t a lot of folks with the tools or knowledge to pick a lock so it was for all practical purposes a novel idea. The other thing that I wonder is if the square pin patent was issued in 1897, wouldn’t they have tried to put it into production soon after? And being that it probably wasn’t very successful right off the bat,they probably didn’t produce them for very many years. Now that being said, in John Grists article, the locks were of the fancy scroll design. So that leads me to wonder how many years Sargent used that scroll design. So far I haven’t been able to find any patents for the logo design, but maybe I’m just not looking in the right places. Any help out there would be appreciated. Thanks, Mark

Pschiffe

Pschiffe wrote
Your Keil 108 aftermarket key blank crosses to Sargent 265B original. This is an obscure and perhaps restricted keyway. I’m guessing your padlock may have been for a railroad application. I’ll check with the Sargent Key Records Department and see if I can get any information.

Pete Schifferli

I heard from Ron Shanley of Sargent Key Records Dept. today. He believes your padlock was made in the 1920 - pre WW2 era. No further infomation available.

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

oldbiscuit

Thanks Pete for the information. Do you have any idea on how to do a copyright search on the scroll logo? Mark

Pschiffe

oldbiscuit wrote
Thanks Pete for the information. Do you have any idea on how to do a copyright search on the scroll logo? Mark

No, sorry Mark; no idea. The company was incorporated in 1864 as Sargent & Co. … They set about making locks with standardized parts and simplified the inside workings of their new line of locks. The locks were stamped “S&Co”.*

*from Locks and Lockmakers of America, Revised Third Edition by Thomas F. Hennessy

Pete

[unknown]

wylk

I tried a trademark search at the US Patent and Trademark web site for an owner of “Sargent and Company” but did not find this. The earliest result returned was dated 1897. It’s possible they did not register this as a trademark.

Jim

Dean Nickel

Here you go… it is a bit older than I thought or was told it would be.

As to the attack issue. This isn’t about resistance against attack more than gaining keying potential in master keying. About the same time they came out with there own master ring cylinder to gain a better capability to master keying. This was before the math for that subject was truly understood.

588026-master-key-pin-lock.pdf

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