old safe literature

Gary Stephenson · 2023-03-11T14:07:16+00:00

having a sort / clear out and found these, any info on approximate dating would be nice / appreciated. Chubb manual of safes and strongrooms, mentions 1968 isolator introduction and some 1973 brochures, so assume 1973 or close after.

Cepasaccus

“blocks of full sized safes” 🙁inlove):

safeman

[video]C:\Users\john\OneDrive\Documents\MY DOCUMENTS\Videos\Videos 2\VIDEOS Safe stuff\New video (2).mp4[/video]

Redoubt wrote
I really did have to have a good look at that picture.
Firstly I just assumed it was just a massive pile of expanded metal stacked up in front to be used throughout the project.
But then realised it was the wall.
They would need a reasonably wet mix of concrete to work its way through all of that!

Redoubt, Yet another concrete plant. You mention wet mix. This shows the very stiff dry mix required for Tann’s Security Concrete and how by vibration and liquefaction it is suitable for penetration of complex reinforcement.

Looks like the video didn’t go.

[unknown]

safeman

safeman wrote
[video]C:\Users\john\OneDrive\Documents\MY DOCUMENTS\Videos\Videos 2\VIDEOS Safe stuff\New video (2).mp4[/video]

Redoubt, Yet another concrete plant. You mention wet mix. This shows the very stiff dry mix required for Tann’s Security Concrete and how by vibration and liquefaction it is suitable for penetration of complex reinforcement.

Looks like the video didn’t go.

Would like to add. The maximum strength and value of security concrete is most important round the front bulkhead of the safe which is at the bottom of the pour and has to penetrate the weldmesh reinforcement totally.
The security of the door remaining in place depends on the inflexibility of the bulkhead and of the lockcase attachment. The greatest ever advance in this area was Chatwood’s use of ‘T’ bar body frame combined with their lockcase using both ‘T’ and angle.
This is where most safes fail today. Not enough metal and the over-use of stitch welding seal the fate of today’s products. Round bolts don’t help either.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

interesting, I would have thought that round bolts would be more secure than rectangular ones as long as they were of sufficient size and strength.

Redoubt

safeman wrote
[video]C:\Users\john\OneDrive\Documents\MY DOCUMENTS\Videos\Videos 2\VIDEOS Safe stuff\New video (2).mp4[/video]

Redoubt, Yet another concrete plant. You mention wet mix. This shows the very stiff dry mix required for Tann’s Security Concrete and how by vibration and liquefaction it is suitable for penetration of complex reinforcement.

Looks like the video didn’t go.

Hi Safeman

I cant seem to view the video.

Any tips?

[unknown]

safeman

Redoubt wrote
Hi Safeman

I cant seem to view the video.

Any tips?

Could try e-mail. I’m at jm@mickyplum.com if you want me to have yours.

Regards ….. John.

[unknown]

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
interesting, I would have thought that round bolts would be more secure than rectangular ones as long as they were of sufficient size and strength.

Hello Gary. In suppose it’s for the same reason as domestic door locks stick with rectangular.

There’s a similarity with the stiletto heel principal where a point on the arc of a circle where maximum pressure can be exerted - a very small point - whereas a rectangular bolt spreads the pressure over the whole length of the bolt. Working in reverse, there is a much larger bearing surface on a rectangular bolt for resistance.

I’m pleased to see that some of the top grade safes are now adopting large rectangular bolts. More expensive for the factory which is why it’s taken so long.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

Hiya John, I am willing to take your word for it as you have much more experience with attack methods than me. I just assumed that with decent sized round bolts normally being larger in diameter than the depth of most rectangular bolts would be stronger as even what I consider normal strength round bolts at maybe 30mm diameter, most rectangular bolts although being of larger length I would say would only be about 13 to 20mm thick.
In the burgled safe pictures,do you think the round bolts were the weak bit or their supporting structures.
I have forced open a grade 3 gas blown atm with both flat side bolts and round top an bottom bolts and the round ones caused me more bother to cut because they were larger diameter and harder / deeper to cut, obviously this is different to forcing / wedging attacks and maybe why I assumed round would be stronger.

Cepasaccus

I have heard the advantage of the flat bolt is that they allow for thinner bolt work construction.

When I see the broken open safes with round bolts I do never see the bolts themselves get damaged, it is always the construction where the bolt is attached to and also the frame (necessarily). The round bolt usually ends not far inside the door while the flat bolts (at least the modern) are usually constructed as a big single piece. So maybe it is not a round / flat bolt issue, but a general bolt work construction issue? But there are also safes with round bolts going from one side of the door to the other, e.g. the Bernadini TL rated safes.

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
Hiya John,
In the burgled safe pictures,do you think the round bolts were the weak bit or their supporting structures.

Dead right Gary. If the lockcase is weak all bets are off.

Where the round bolts don’t do any favours is during the process of levering the door out of the frame. The door is coming out - the round bolts are resisting - but with that much pressure on the round surface it does two things, It distorts the pocket and surrounding inner lining allowing slight movement, and being curved, will slip outwards more easily which wouldn’t happen were it flat and with greater contact. If the attack starts near the top of the door then only a single bolt and pocket at a time faces outward pressure, the remaining ones in sequence.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

cheers John, now that makes perfect sense to me, less surface area, so easier to get a starting gap to insert bigger/stronger force tools.
Gary

Cepasaccus

I found here a photo that show as safe that has flat bolts on the opening side and a bar(?) on the hinge side. The hinge side bar is like in burglarized round bolt safe on the hinge side not solid. It is just a sheet construction. Does this bar provide a security benefit even when it is made the same way as the dummy round bolts?

safeman

Cepasaccus wrote
I found here a photo that show as safe that has flat bolts on the opening side and a bar(?) on the hinge side. The hinge side bar is like in burglarized round bolt safe on the hinge side not solid. It is just a sheet construction. Does this bar provide a security benefit even when it is made the same way as the dummy round bolts?

Not much difference except that dummy round bolts will fail in progression whereas this dogging bar will act as complete unit although not enough welding showing.

[unknown]

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