old safe literature

Gary Stephenson · 2023-03-11T14:07:16+00:00

having a sort / clear out and found these, any info on approximate dating would be nice / appreciated. Chubb manual of safes and strongrooms, mentions 1968 isolator introduction and some 1973 brochures, so assume 1973 or close after.

Gary Stephenson

next part

Redoubt

Great pictures Gary

Love all that reinforcing in the wall.

Have worked on a couple of the Tann Doors with the Ventilators/Ramp that drop down when you open the door.

A lot going on with that mechanism.

Just trying to find some pictures.

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
next part[/QUOTE

….and some more.

The first 3 photos are from a small handbook dedicated to Tann types of construction and the fourth is the preparatory work for a small basement vault in the Clydesdale Bank, Kilmarnock, which shows the vertical Starter Bars in the base ready to accept the Anchormesh mattresses.

[unknown]

Redoubt

Great information Safeman.

Was there any particular reason for the different barriers of spiral reinforcing versus the expanded metal barrier in the vault walls?

We’re the precast blocks used very much in vault construction?

Did this method of construction pre date the instavault method?

safeman

Redoubt wrote
Great information Safeman.

Was there any particular reason for the different barriers of spiral reinforcing versus the expanded metal barrier in the vault walls?

We’re the precast blocks used very much in vault construction?

Did this method of construction pre date the instavault method?

In brief Redoubt, Spiral fell out of favour when the packed lance made an appearance which fed on the presence of ferrous metal reinforcement - especially in such volume as the interwoven coils of Spiral presented. It’s speciality is against the like of Road Breakers.

Pre-cast blocks have much to offer such as instant use of the facility whereas poured concrete only dries out at about an inch per month! Even the use of special strong room driers do little to speed the process. The main advantage however is in quality control. With poured concrete Test Cubes are made at each pour and vibrated and dried as the main structure. This can really only measure the Compressive Strength as in general construction work. It does not measure Tensile Strength which is the primary feature of Security Concrete. Lastly, poured in-situ required maximum quality site control in the placing of the concrete such as timing and continuity of delivery.

Since Victorian times manufacturers have provided de-mountable rooms, assembled in the factory, then disassembled with each panel and component sewn up in protective canvas for shipping. I don’t know the dates.

Let me know if I’ve missed something.

Regards ….. John.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

I seem to remember the name Nicholsons of Leeds? possibly mention with regard to the precast blocks, but cannot seem to find any info to confirm this.

Gary Stephenson

Chatwood

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
I seem to remember the name Nicholsons of Leeds? possibly mention with regard to the precast blocks, but cannot seem to find any info to confirm this.

Of the major safe Manufactures John Tann and the Ratner Safe Company appear to have had in-house Strong Room Construction departments whereas Chubb and Chatwood sub-contracted Nicholsons to undertake the contracts. I am not certain what Hobbs Hart did but probably the same.

When I was contacted by the Flying Squad regarding the Hatton Garden Burglary it was to seek whatever there was to know about the exact construction of the Strong Room. I was able to tell them who in fact built the Room and the type of steel reinforcement used and the manner in which it had been placed. This was finally confirmed from the core samples.

When John Tann finally closed their Strong Room Department they used the services of Aegis Construction with Ron Blackburn and Peter Pierce in charge, both exTann. Tom Ainscough, another exTann man, also provided this service. Aegis conducted their own tests with Anchormesh against explosive attack with positive results.

[unknown]

Redoubt

Thanks Gary, and Safeman.

Great information as usual.

Tom Gordon

Gary Stephenson wrote
Chatwood book, nothing in it I can see to help date it.

Shrewsbury is post 1928

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

safeman wrote
Of the major safe Manufactures John Tann and the Ratner Safe Company appear to have had in-house Strong Room Construction departments whereas Chubb and Chatwood sub-contracted Nicholsons to undertake the contracts. I am not certain.

It would be highly likely that the Chatwood vaults built using blocks were made by the same people who provided the exceptional concrete which made the Duplex and Homesafe so good. British Safe Company or some such name.
that would have been in the 1930’s onwards. In situ vaults may have been otherwise done

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

Redoubt wrote
Great information Safeman.

Was there any particular reason for the different barriers of spiral reinforcing versus the expanded metal barrier in the vault walls?

We’re the precast blocks used very much in vault construction?

Did this method of construction pre date the instavault method?

Spiral was a Chatwood thing I believe.
blocks were not common and I don’t even know if Chatwood actually built any but they thought it up around 1930 I believe.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Recall chatwood’s spiral mattresses mentioned on the historyuk website saying (from memory) that they were so successful they continued manufacture under milner and chubb (following the subsequent takeovers) and continued into the early 1990s.
Also iirc, our uk post office strongrooms were still being specced and built with it until the mid or late 90s.

I always thought most adopted a happy balance using spiral mattress and tordbar, but I seem to recall John (safeman)saying Tann’s favoured the mattresses, and ditched (or rarely used) the tordbar/tangbar twisted spirals- might be wrong on that though.

What always intrigued me with the massive installations was how they avoided over-steeling the concrete.
I remember an old b&w construction pic of the new york federal reserve walls before the upright cylindrical door is installed, and the volume of steel in the walls is insane!

Huw Eastwood

Here’s the ny fed installation before the ‘door’ (upright cylinder) went in.
That’s a lot of steel…

Huw Eastwood

Huw Eastwood wrote
I always thought most adopted a happy balance using spiral mattress and tordbar, but I seem to recall John (safeman)saying Tann’s favoured the mattresses, and ditched (or rarely used) the tordbar/tangbar twisted spirals- might be wrong on that though.

That should have read ‘I might be wrong on that..’
Wasn’t implying that John might be wrong!

[unknown]

safeman

Tom Gordon wrote
Spiral was a Chatwood thing I believe.
blocks were not common and I don’t even know if Chatwood actually built any but they thought it up around 1930 I believe.

Hello again Tom,

The reason that Chatwood had excellent concrete might be because they were in the same Group - Hall’s Engineering along with British Reinforced Concrete,

When in 1956 they were trading alongside Chubb their product list mentions the Spiral Reinforcement and Block Strongrooms. (and Railway sleepers ! )

Best wishes …. John.

[unknown]

safeman

Huw Eastwood wrote
Recall chatwood’s spiral mattresses mentioned on the historyuk website saying (from memory) that they were so successful they continued manufacture under milner and chubb (following the subsequent takeovers) and continued into the early 1990s.
Also iirc, our uk post office strongrooms were still being specced and built with it until the mid or late 90s.

I always thought most adopted a happy balance using spiral mattress and tordbar, but I seem to recall John (safeman)saying Tann’s favoured the mattresses, and ditched (or rarely used) the tordbar/tangbar twisted spirals- might be wrong on that though.

Huw, Tann sold many Doors in the Middle East through their Agents on whom they had to rely for the construction of the rooms. These documents showed them the correct means of placing twisted bar reinforcement. This was relatively straight forward compared to the much more specialised expanded metal and enormous shipping costs.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

nearly there

Redoubt

Huw Eastwood wrote
Here’s the ny fed installation before the ‘door’ (upright cylinder) went in.
That’s a lot of steel…
[ATTACH=CONFIG]23507[/ATTACH]

I really did have to have a good look at that picture.
Firstly I just assumed it was just a massive pile of expanded metal stacked up in front to be used throughout the project.
But then realised it was the wall.
They would need a reasonably wet mix of concrete to work its way through all of that!

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

last part 8-)

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