Anchoring

Chubby · 2016-12-28T11:53:01+00:00

I took a thread off at a tangent so wondered if it was worth starting a thread on safe anchoring. What works and what doesn’t etc. The old sawdust and alum safes were not easy to anchor down as drilling the base would compromise the lining. I have seen one anchored with steel bands coachbolted through a wooden floor, then another piece of steel strip similarly bolted in front to prevent it from being slid out. Far from ideal but it doubtless would have slowed down any assailant. Some army safes were anchored similarly with bands which were rawlbolted to a concrete floor and the threads welded up. One of my favourites was an old Chatwood Duplex Major plate safe. That had been lined and the void filled with concrete. It had been a night safe so the bottom of the frame was much wider than the sides or top. The lining, however, was the same thickness throughout leaving a lip of a couple of inches. This had been filled with a concealed compartment which gave access to 4 anchoring points. It was accessed by removing 4 allen screws and sliding out the false bottom. Bricking in and filling round with concrete is an old favourite and increases the strength of the body and the fire resisting capability of the unit; I have, however, seen the steel of a safe degraded by the action of the concrete although quite how or why that should have happened is beyond me. Anything is better than nothing especially as most anchoring is really to stop the safe being slid along. So even something as simple as a Fischer frame fixing into a hole in the floor will work. Of course some of the old AEDs relied on the safe not being inverted. Another argument in favour of a base fixing.

safeman

Chubby wrote
I remember John Tann not providing fixing holes on their heavy safes (and they were seriously heavy). I was told, I think by Tann, that they didn’t do this because so to do would compromise the safe. I never quite understood that- how one or two relatively small holes would cause a problem, but they knew more about the subject than I did!

Hello again Chubby,

For safes intended for export to the US where the UL 687 would apply, the testers would take advantage of any pre-prepared weaknesses such as anchoring tubes and spindle holes through the door.

Ridiculous as it may sound, by their X6 standards, a penetration of 2 square inches (1′6 dia.) which could allow fishing of a pre-determined amount of Bank Notes after the application of water would constitute a failure if within the specific test time. This same criteria of 2 sq.inches when applied to the door jamb takes some considerable design improvement costs over the norm to prevent when you consider that only a gap measuring 4″ x ½" wide would constitute a failure.

Their team of two operatives are extremely skilled in the use of the oxy-acet torch with a straight line 180° nozzle and substantial fluxing rods. (plus hose).

[unknown]

safeman

Safeone wrote
Would any breach of the sides compromise the rating ? Mike Palmer sent me any interesting article some years ago on the cash drop facilities fitted to safes and how these were reducing cash rating because of the alleged weakness these could present.

Hello Safeone.

This has brought back to mind a very troublesome incident in the early 1990’s.

A Tann sales rep in the Midlands sold a Tenacity quality with the standard drawer deposit facility to a large Motor Auction house and unfortunately did so on the basis of the then accepted overnight Cash Cover of the basic safe. A large loss was incurred from the burglary where the deposit drawer was sawn off and the deposits extracted.

This resulted in an action in the Guildhall Court which brought me out of retirement and failing to convince the court that the time taken to fish the contents thought the gap left from the severed drawer would have been excessive.

I no longer have access to the AiS’s position on this but perhaps some other reader could enlighten us.

The onus lay solely with salesman who had not been properly enlightened on his responsibility.

[unknown]

Safeone

Mike Palmer relayed a story to me about a safe that had a narrow drop facility for cash pods. An employee took diagrams and pocked around internally over a period of time then spent a few hours with a Dyson and modified attachments and took many of the pods. Dont think it matters how well it is bolted down in circumstances such as these.

wylk

Not mentioned but sometimes important, anchoring can be a safety issue with a safe that is light compared to its door. That is, when you open the door the safe might tip over or it might be close to it.

Chubby

Plate safes with a heavy doorframe were particularly prone to tipping.

One useful way of anchoring is to weld some big RSJ or channel to the base of the safe and then cast a plinth around the unit which is also tied into the floor. The big advantage with that is that it lifts the safe so making it easier to use.

I am amazed at how much traffic this thread has generated! Perhaps it is just that people have less to do over the Christmas & New Year period.

safeman

Chubby wrote
Plate safes with a heavy doorframe were particularly prone to tipping.

One useful way of anchoring is to weld some big RSJ or channel to the base of the safe and then cast a plinth around the unit which is also tied into the floor. The big advantage with that is that it lifts the safe so making it easier to use.

I am amazed at how much traffic this thread has generated! Perhaps it is just that people have less to do over the Christmas & New Year period.

Right Chubby,

Just passing the time till the Bells.

But you have reminded me - I forgot to mention one critical point - the strength of the concrete.
Our test anchoring was on a factory standard concrete which would have been approximately 40 N/mm² compressive strength.

Shops and offices are more generally 20 N/mm². However the critical point is that it is not cracked.

To put this in context with the barrier concrete in safe bodies, Tanncrete, as in top grade safes was around 180 N/mm². This of course is only the strength in compression whereas Tanncrete was mainly designed to have the maximum tensile strength to resist fragmentation.

Sorry, Chubby, sounds like I’m teaching my Grandmother to suck eggs.

[unknown]

Safeone

Leverage eh……..not got any physics or engineering quals but leverage is brilliant. Got given a massive roller crow bar off an ex rail track pal sometime ago, it has a wide ‘toe’, wide wheels, weighs a ton and is over five feet high. Once the toe gets under the base of any safe I have owned(two tonne plus included) a simply pull down on the bar gets the safe up ready to place blocks etc underneath. I am only 14 stone, the rest is water retention, and manage this with ease. Amazing !! Easily pleased me :-)

Chubby

“Give me a lever long enough, and a strong enough fulcrum,………………and I will bend the lever” to paraphrase Archimedes.

That sounds to be a useful piece of kit for anybody with a heavy one to move.

safeman

Safeone wrote
Leverage eh……..not got any physics or engineering quals but leverage is brilliant. Got given a massive roller crow bar off an ex rail track pal sometime ago, it has a wide ‘toe’, wide wheels, weighs a ton and is over five feet high. Once the toe gets under the base of any safe I have owned(two tonne plus included) a simply pull down on the bar gets the safe up ready to place blocks etc underneath. I am only 14 stone, the rest is water retention, and manage this with ease. Amazing !! Easily pleased me :-)

Looks like you have a Shunting Bar with additional wheels. Magnificent piece of equipment. Have seen it used to great effect edging and levelling a strong room door and frame into final position.

[unknown]

Safeone

safeman wrote
[ATTACH=CONFIG]16601[/ATTACH]

Looks like you have a Shunting Bar with additional wheels. Magnificent piece of equipment. Have seen it used to great effect edging and levelling a strong room door and frame into final position.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16602[/ATTACH]

Thanks for the informative reply. Seems bizarre as to how much lift can be got with a bent bar ! I will photograph mine and post it at somepoint, there should be a picture attached showing the same man using a different bar.

[unknown]

Chubby

Another thread made me think about anchoring a double skinned safe with a loose fire resisting lining. I don’t like drilling out a hole in the base, as it is messy. Of course it can be done with one of the good quality hole saws that mount on a drill.

I saw one once which belonged to a blacksmith. It was on a wooden floor, so no anchoring was ever going to be very good. He had made 2 bands which wrapped around the safe, one at the front and one at the back. These had small “feet” bent out at the bottom, drilled and coachbolted through the floor. He then had a third piece of steel just in front of the safe, again coachbolted through the boards. Of course that prevented the safe from being slid out from the straps. It was actually very neatly done. I realise a baddie could have gone under the floor and unbolted the thing but it did stop anybody simply walking off with the unit.

The big problem is that you shouldn’t weld to an old fire resisting safe as the heat generated will start to triger the sawdust and alum mixture. Equally if you have one which has asbestos between the skins, well who wants to drill asbestos?

IANK

Another good thread.
My partner used to work in a high street bank. The crew who fix down the cash machine left behind one of the hold down kits which consisted of 4off M16 studs (grade 8.8) and a tube of ‘chemical fix’, presumably to stop ram raiding. She recovered the kit from the skip and brought them home. Used just one stud to fix down my 6 foot tall ‘Stephan Cox’ with 100×100×6 thick washer I use in my workshop.
Just to note I keep the plasma cutter head in the safe as well as the disc cutter nuts (the ones that keep the disc on the machine) as well as the fork lift keys.

Richard Phillips

Safeone wrote
Somewhere I saw a picture of a safe that was bolted down using the base hole with one Rawbolt affixed into a concrete floor, I am pretty sure that a 10 ton ram with toe fitments could not lift it off the floor. It was not a large safe. I will see if I can locate it.

I too can confirm having seen such a picture in a police magazine some 3 decades ago.

[unknown]

« Previous Page