Anchoring

Chubby

I took a thread off at a tangent so wondered if it was worth starting a thread on safe anchoring. What works and what doesn’t etc.

The old sawdust and alum safes were not easy to anchor down as drilling the base would compromise the lining. I have seen one anchored with steel bands coachbolted through a wooden floor, then another piece of steel strip similarly bolted in front to prevent it from being slid out. Far from ideal but it doubtless would have slowed down any assailant. Some army safes were anchored similarly with bands which were rawlbolted to a concrete floor and the threads welded up.

One of my favourites was an old Chatwood Duplex Major plate safe. That had been lined and the void filled with concrete. It had been a night safe so the bottom of the frame was much wider than the sides or top. The lining, however, was the same thickness throughout leaving a lip of a couple of inches. This had been filled with a concealed compartment which gave access to 4 anchoring points. It was accessed by removing 4 allen screws and sliding out the false bottom.

Bricking in and filling round with concrete is an old favourite and increases the strength of the body and the fire resisting capability of the unit; I have, however, seen the steel of a safe degraded by the action of the concrete although quite how or why that should have happened is beyond me.

Anything is better than nothing especially as most anchoring is really to stop the safe being slid along. So even something as simple as a Fischer frame fixing into a hole in the floor will work.

Of course some of the old AEDs relied on the safe not being inverted. Another argument in favour of a base fixing.

Safeone

Somewhere I saw a picture of a safe that was bolted down using the base hole with one Rawbolt affixed into a concrete floor, I am pretty sure that a 10 ton ram with toe fitments could not lift it off the floor. It was not a large safe. I will see if I can locate it.

Chubby

Of course one aspect of it all is designing the safe with carriages etc. which cannot be used as lifting points- sloping the under surfaces etc.

One amusing trick is if you are anchoring a safe hard against a wall, and what safe isn’t, then cover the back with anti climb paint just before you slide it fully home.

safeman

Safeone wrote
Somewhere I saw a picture of a safe that was bolted down using the base hole with one Rawbolt affixed into a concrete floor, I am pretty sure that a 10 ton ram with toe fitments could not lift it off the floor. It was not a large safe. I will see if I can locate it.

Must ensure tight to the wall or the whole thing can be unscrewed!

[unknown]

Chubby

That is one of the beauties of a chemical bolt. Loosening a bit doesn’t compromise the fixing. It has to be unscrewed all the way. Also it doesn’t put the concrete under stress.

Tom Gordon

Chubby wrote
That is one of the beauties of a chemical bolt. Loosening a bit doesn’t compromise the fixing. It has to be unscrewed all the way. Also it doesn’t put the concrete under stress.

I have levered a rawlbolt out with wedges under both sides of the safe -fairly easy for the first bit but damn awkward if in a corner

[unknown]

Safeone

safeman wrote
[ATTACH=CONFIG]16588[/ATTACH] Must ensure tight to the wall or the whole thing can be unscrewed!

Thats the picture I was thinking of, where is it from ?

I now have an image of someone walking round in circles unscrewing a Chubb Trident from its base bolt :-) !!!!

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

It wasn’t me!! 😺

safeman

Safeone wrote
Thats the picture I was thinking of, where is it from ?

I now have an image of someone walking round in circles unscrewing a Chubb Trident from its base bolt :-) !!!![/QUOTE

Hello Safeone.
I can’t find where I first showed this. It was taken in the Tann test facility in Borehamwood in the late 80’s. The anchoring followed the Rawlbolt instructions to the letter including using a puffer to blow any spoil from the drilled hole.
I’m the boy in blue. The lever is a bending 30mm pinch bar.
Chubby is dead right when he gives the solution to this by chamfering the underside of the carriages and centres.

[unknown]

Safeone

safeman wrote
Safeone wrote
Thats the picture I was thinking of, where is it from ?

I now have an image of someone walking round in circles unscrewing a Chubb Trident from its base bolt :-) !!!![/QUOTE

Hello Safeone.
I can’t find where I first showed this. It was taken in the Tann test facility in Borehamwood in the late 80’s. The anchoring followed the Rawlbolt instructions to the letter including using a puffer to blow any spoil from the drilled hole.
I’m the boy in blue. The lever is a bending 30mm pinch bar.
Chubby is dead right when he gives the solution to this by chamfering the underside of the carriages and centres.

Wow! how interesting that its actually you in the photo. Wonder where and why I first saw this ? Got me thinking that has….

[unknown] [unknown]

safeman

Safeone wrote
safeman wrote
Wow! how interesting that its actually you in the photo. Wonder where and why I first saw this ? Got me thinking that has….

Should have remembered Safeone. It’s in a section of my Safeman site …..

http://www.safeman.org.uk/moderntimes.htm

…. under the heading Hydraulic and Mechanical Jacks.

[unknown] [unknown]

Safeone

Great minds ! Just 30 seconds ago I found it but cant copy & paste on here for some reason, when I tried I noted your post. Anyway 2 × 12mm Rawbolts made it unmoveable. Is this what actually happened ?

Chubby

I always wondered what would happen if somebody got a jack under the door edge of a TDR Chubb. They were well proud of the frame.

Chubby

Of course 2 fixing holes would make a spinning attack useless.

Arcade Al

Higher grade safes have increasing numbers of fixings, I understand?
As many as five?
Not sure if they are all base though, or if fixings are ever made through the backs or sides.

Chubby

I remember John Tann not providing fixing holes on their heavy safes (and they were seriously heavy). I was told, I think by Tann, that they didn’t do this because so to do would compromise the safe. I never quite understood that- how one or two relatively small holes would cause a problem, but they knew more about the subject than I did!

Safeone

Would any breach of the sides compromise the rating ? Mike Palmer sent me any interesting article some years ago on the cash drop facilities fitted to safes and how these were reducing cash rating because of the alleged weakness these could present.

Redoubt

I think a John Tann Diamond would do me just fine.

Some other safes to consider from down this way would be the Wormald 8000 out of Australia. This is a full 6 sided Anti Arc Safe,with curved glass protecting the locks, plus complete Manganese shroud completely covering the entire locking area from all sides. I believe there were only 8 x Wormald 8000’s made.

Ratner is another manufacturer who were based in Melbourne, Australia and made some very high spec custom made safes, and depending on the situation, had there safes inspected by a Lloyds representative during manufacture. I was lucky enough to visit the Ratner Factory on a number of occasions and witnessed some very out of control safes being manufactured. I believe Ratner was sold a few years back, and now no longer manufacture safes although I am not sure of this.

The Kingdom KZ Anti Arc series of safes out of New Zealand were also very well made, and the ones made in the late 1980’s were very well engineered, and are an absolute nightmare to drill, even with modern drilling equipment.

These safes had to stand and defend for a long time, as there are some very remote locations in Australia and New Zealand that would not get a quick security response.

Redoubt

Sorry the previous reply had nothing to do with anchoring. Was supposed to go into Ultimate safe area. Long Day!

Safeone

Information on the Wormald 8000 can be found here https://citysafes.com.au/printbrochure/index/index/id/892