Diebold Constellation

wylk · 2015-06-07T18:52:06+00:00

Yesterday I saw something new (to me), a Diebold Constellation door. I had not heard of this line and I can’t see that the name was ever trademarked by Diebold. This is a former bank which is now a bicycle shop. Here are some images: Above, the inside face. Opening the access door reveals no time locks and no combination lock. The gear that would couple the outside handle to the boltwork has been removed. Above, the outside face showing a single combination lock in the center of the boltwork handle. Notice the substantial doorstop mounted to the wall. Above, the side of the door had controls for a power open/close mechanism (electrical or hydraulic?). There is a keyswitch and three buttons: Open, Close, and Stop. And this seems odd to me. Having a single lock suggests a low-cost door but power open/close seems like a higher-end option. A high-end cheap door? Above: This is the style of logo on the knob of the combination lock. It seems strange because this logo sort of went out of style in the 1930s, or so I thought. But the building and door would seem to be 1960s-ish. Maybe Diebold still had a big boxload of dials from an old production run? In the same building is the former night depository safe (the outside has been covered up by remodeling work) with an S&G lock but no other branding: Can anybody shed some light on the Constellation line such as date range, options, whatever?

Doug MacQueen

I am positive I have never seen those in hinges in person, but pretty sure I have seen a photo of one, possibly on this forum. Not that it looks like any of the few Damon’s I have seen, I will go with that. Or even a foreign maker. Seriously doubt any of the big U.S. makers. Wylk where are you?

wylk

I don’t recall seeing anything like this so I didn’t have much to say. The two-part crane hinge (and the adjusting screws) and the pressure system look quite different from what we are used to. The paint job is sad but I’ll guess it’s not original. Probably very early (1900s?) and probably not North American but that’s pure speculation on my part.

And not related to the Constellation :=-:

T Davison

This door is a Herring & Marvin. The locks are Dexters with LOBC.The LOBC are with a flat key. There is a time lock That is a S&G model #2. The bolt work is a Farrel & Herring design. The only date is on the dial of the deter lock, Aug 24 1868. I open this about 10 years ago. This is the start of the Diebold vault door systems. From the handle with the ball on the ends to the compression system on a single pin hinges . I’ll post more picture. I have to resize them.
Tim

wylk

Pure speculation got me where it usually does. I’ll blame Doug because he prodded me 😃:

I’m looking forward to a few more pictures.

Doug MacQueen

Wow, that’s a bit of a surprise. So I have seen Herring Hall and now Herring Marvin. Obviously both occuring prior to Herring-Hall-Marvin. That makes it sound like Herring initiated the mergers. That would put the around 1895? Not sure what you mean by mentioning a Diebold connection. They were making their own doors earlier than this door.

T Davison

In 1865 John Ferral patented with Herring a banker safe that has all the characteristic of Farrel,Herring ,Marvin ,Diebold vaults up about the 1960’s. From the bolts to how the bolt work is fasten to the door. The style of fasteners to the spacing. The locks used to the mounting location of the locks. The compressor system is the other given. In 1871 Diebold changed there hinge side compressor block, to swing with the door. This was on the Farrel safe in1865. If you look at the Diebold vaults, RH/LH 140 to the constellation you can see the influence Farrel and Herring had on the hinges to the Crane hinges type systems. This is just a small sample of the influence These men had on the safe and vault world. hope you enjoy this Tim

Huw Eastwood

wouldn’t have guessed Herring & Marvin in a million years ! The boltworks quite attractive for such a utilitarian appearance from the front, almost Lego-like, and the lever operated rack and pinions on the door front driving the pressure bars really unusual. Only doors I could think of with the continuous pins straight through the crane hinge was round door Hibbard Rodman Ely’s, but I could see this clearly wasn’t theirs. Nice photos too, well done tim 🙁y):

Doug MacQueen

While I truly appreciate the pictures and the attempt to connect the development of safe and vault designs, I think you may be attributing more to Farrel than he deserves. That is not to put him down in any way. It is just that so much in the safe and vault designs is purely reactionary, and because of this it is not unusual to see the same or similar ideas popping up around the same time. Take pressure systems and crane hinges which you havre brought up. Once nitro came into use, makers strived to make the doors fit much tighter. Huh we have a problem. Yes we can slam it shut but we made the door so tight we can’t pull it open. Make it even tighter and you can’t even shut it. So the pressure bars and crane hinges come into use. I am not finding a Farrel patent regarding hinges for 1865 but here is a 1871 patent. I also don’t know of a Diebold 1871 patent regarding hinges but maybe you have. Also included are a Diebold Kienzle showing a crane hinge and this safe is prior to 1874. A Herring Farrel showing the 1871 patent. A Harris, a Hall and a Detroit as well

Doug MacQueen

Here is the Diebold vault crane hinge pressure patent from 1888, the earliest that I have found and 2 door examples. Both of these doors are as old or older that the Herring Marvin. I have not found very many doors of any make that are older, and unfortunately didn’t take pictures of some of the ones I have seen.

Doug MacQueen

Took me a while to find my pictures, but here is an example of John Farrell’s 1865 patent. I wish I had taken more time with this lock setup but at least I know where it is. It sounds like an active relocking devise. Knock the lock off the door and boltwork stays locked.

Huw Eastwood

Wow that is incredible, very very interesting Doug. Surely that must be the earliest example relocking device then ?
What’s particularly amazed me is that for the time i wouldn’t have expected much more than a crude spring loaded dead device triggered only by the lock parting company from the door. That on the other hand, sounds and looks quite an elaborate live relocker, or active as you said, effective every time the safe is used by the locking/unlocking action of the lock bolt. Amazing for the time that, you’ll be telling us the updated 1880 version had glass plates at this rate ! :-O

wylk

Tim, could you let us know the location of this Herring & Marvin door? I understand that’s not always proper.

T Davison

I work in the northeast (New York city) where safe company’s and lock manufacturers had factory’s. I have seen and see new things in old safe every day. The pictures are of a Herring & Farrel safe with a jeweler chest. This safe is early 1860’s. If you look at American Genius page 134&135 The Dexter lock that Herring & co used is not quite the same as the one in the picture of the safe I opened. The Dexter lock in the American Genius has a screw in the post for the lever. The Dexter in the safe pictures has no screw. The number on the lever post is the 31 lock made by Dexter. (15579 safe serial#)The improvement was add to the patent 1869. I’ll look at pictures and post more. Enjoy the pictures Tim

T Davison

If you study the pictures the first thing is that All the bolts on this chest are rectangle. I found that most chest pictured have a mix of rectangle and 1 or 2 round on the opening side. If you look at the picture from the end of the door you can see the gear system to drive the bolt work. The active re-lock is also pictured locked and unlocked. In the unlock re-locker picture you can see the safe serial# stamped into the bed plate.The lock is in my private collection.
The reason I say that Farrel & Herring had such a influence on other manufacturers is that I find these examples of early or strange safes and locks. I agree with you people can have similar ideas. Every day that I open one of these safes I lean something new. I hope all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year !
Enjoy Tim

wylk

Back to the original topic, Constellation doors.

I’ve had this image for a while “borrowed” from an eBay auction (thus the unfortunate water marks) and just now realized it is a five-star door labeled as a Hermann. If I understand correctly, Hermann was not a manufacturer of doors; he would subcontract to others and relabel the products.

The other side of this photograph was dated 7/30/1958 and stated:[INDENT]Ali Baba to the contrary, it will take more than an “open sesame” to get this giant, 15-ton door to open. The door, largest in the nation to be controlled via pushbutton, is being moved into place at the main offices of the American Trust Co. in San Francisco. It will guard a “burglar-proof, earthquake proof, fire-proof, bomb-proof" vault. At the touch of a button, the door will open and the footbridge will lower into the vault.
[/INDENT]
The location should be 1 Grant Avenue, San Francisco, which currently houses The Ice Cream Museum.

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