Safe - Thomas Perry & Son

sparkyskey

Hi there. We are looking at purchasing locally a safe made by Thomas Perry and Son (Bilston), although it is in a fairly sad state. A similar model is currently for sale on Ebay UK - 220044275060. They look to be a fairly basic/modest make - like our budget :-) Any helpful information would be appreciated. Many thanks Sarah

Huntlocks

Hi Sarah,

Here’s a bit of info I have collected - unscientifically - as an interested person - not a collector proper. I sell safes in UK. I would imagine I have scrapped more Thomas Perry safes than I have sold. Wouldn’t collect one even today - unless I was paid!

Thomas Perry, Pre 1899 Birmingham, acquired by Samuel Withers.

Samuel Withers, 1843 Birmingham, Over many years Samuel Withers had acquired several of the old Birmingham companies. Safes Ltd, J Cartwright, Thomas Perry, E Hipkins, Phillips and Birmingham Safe Co. These were all transferred to Stratford-Tann in 1968.

I have one nice plaque, see attached.

Richard

Huntlocks

Had a giggle when I saw Sarah’s Ebay potential, capital letters are the Ebay ad, lower case - my comments:
HIGH QUALITY FIRE RESISTANT SAFE – It was never high quality and I doubt it was fire resistant for long – most of the filling would have compacted to the lower half – you know, the part that gets the hottest in a fire.
MANUFACTURED BY THOMAS PERRY AND SON (BILSTON) – must be true – there is a brass plate stating it.
THIS IS A HIGH QUALITY – see above – SAFE IN GOOD CONDITION errr apart from…
ONLY THINGS WRONG ARE THE PAINT HAS A LOT OF CHIPS AND SCRATCHES IN IT – so lets get this right, it’s in good condition apart from the condition of the paintwork, ah but
CAN EASILY BE PAINTED PLUS THE TWO DRAWERS INSIDE HAVE LOCKS ON THEM BUT I HAVE LOST THE KEYS TO THEM – ahhh, right, no keys then…
IT IS HEAVY – well, you wouldn’t want it on your toe, but heavy…I don’t think so, 75kg or so
APPROX DIMENSIONS ARE – approx, can’t he use a measuring tape?
OUTSIDE 490MM WIDE X 430MM DEEP X 700MM HIGH
INSIDE 380MM WIDE X 370MM DEEP X 610MM HIGH
DOOR IS 90MM THICK mmmm, more like 10mm plus the lock pan at 80mm
SHELL IS 50MM THICK ah truth…shell, think of eggs, rivets and putty…
PICK UP OR CAN DELIVER AT COST – no thanks.

Sorry if I’m a bit sad old cynic but the dishonesty/naivety of some Ebayers jars on me.

sparkyskey

Hi there Huntlocks - many thanks for your helpful info. The safe we are looking at is not the one listed on Ebay - just one like it located here in New Zealand. The New Zealand one is being advertised as a basic safe - so no misrepresentation problems. We are actually key collectors and thought it might be a cool way to display/store our keys - we’re really just after a basic safe that works and is within our budget. We are by no means connoisseurs in any sense of the word … yet. Perhaps, in time, we’ll will get hooked on safe collecting as well? :-) But, we do appreciate your information, and have rounded down our offer based on it. Many thanks once again - Sarah

sparkyskey

Richard - forgot to mention your photo of the safe plate. Very nice! Are they easy to locate and re-attach?? There are several other safes that we have looked at - but they do not have their makers plate or key latch cover. Thanks Sarah

Tom Gordon

Well they are normally very easy indeed if you source the same plate that came off - not difficult on what is likely to be a common safe like yours. Find a similar thread screw and then screw on.
Otherwise you would have to drill and tap the two fixing holes in the right place and screw the plate on.
The plate that Richard showed is not common and the one you would find easily would probably not be as pretty.
Any chance of dragging it off you Richard?
Cheers
Old Tom

Huntlocks

Crumbs Tom do you never give in!!

Sarah

As Tom says look for plates on ebay they will be cheap to send in the post - as long as it’s not a big cast Milner plate eh Tom? The nicest cheap one to keep searching for is a large Cartright one - keep that to yourself though! Saw one go cheaply recently, can’t find my jpg, I’ll post one later if I find it.

The safe plaques have been removed from safes by people like me. 25 years ago we used to strip them, repaint them and sell them on - nice money at the time. Just kept the plates in a box - still do with some of them.

I have scrapped some lovely safes - beautiful hand built antiques but we could not afford to accomodate them just to look at. They have little ‘antique’ value. Insurance companies no longer accept them as safes - rightly - so they are disappearing.

You have a good idea though, to store your collection.

Richard

sparkyskey

Hi guys - many thanks for your comments and assistance. We did not end up purchasing the Perry safe - someone else wanted it more than we did :-). However - things have a way of turning out for the best. The very next day a local auction site here dropped it’s expensive reserve on a Milner 212 safe - so we snapped that up instead. The plaque on the front looks big enough to eat your dinner off!! You would quite rightly not want to pay the postage to get something like that sent out here. I think it is quite a bit newer than the two pictured in the Milner 212 post on this website though - however it does seem to have the original plaque and key hole cover etc. I guess we will see when it arrives. We’re just going through the process of arranging freight to get it here - and sorting the best place for it once it arrives. I won’t want to be moving it around much once it is settled! It would be good to get a general idea of it’s age, if anyone is able to advise. I will look for numbers etc when it arrives and pose the question then. Once again thanks for your replys.

Huntlocks

Thought I’d better correct my previous hasty posting. The really nice (cheap) plaque was a Cyrus Price one, circular about 9 inches in diameter, see attached jpg. I have it on a 1960’s Thomas Withers Vulcan safe which I ‘oldified’. It’s a rubbish safe but it keeps private papers from prying eyes - when you have a locksmiths business you can’t keep anything private if you only have a key locking cabinet!

Glad you found a safe you wanted Sarah. The Milner is a better safe definitely. If you post the serial number one of us will give you the date - I get lots of information from Tom’s excellent website.

Post a picture of your new aquisition too, glad it’s got an escutcheon covering the key hole.

…and Tom, ….NO!

Richard

Tom Gordon

There are two versions of that plate in 2 different sizes
Cheers
Tom

sparkyskey

Hi guys - sorry it has taken a while to post these - but better late than never. Hope everyone has had a good New Year and is back into the swing of things. We now have TWO Milner 212 safes and my husband has told me we haven’t room for any more! I guess it was catchy :-)

The first safe we purchased was the black one - pictured below as Safe 1. It looks like the previous owner has “chromed” the brass fittings - as I don’t think this is original. We had to have an extra door key cut. Luckily one of the drawers was open - so have since had two keys cut for that lock as well. The other drawer (on the right) is locked - no key. Still working out what to do about that and various different options for opening the drawer without the key. The serial number (?) on the safe front is N6128 and then further to the left 90 and 0. Any suggestions appreciated :-).

The second safe (Safe 2) is a two door Milner - which has been painted a very rude apricot/beige colour (probably quite chic in the 80’s - but definitely disturbing now!). This we have also had an extra door key cut for. The drawers were both unlocked and I have the original locks for them - but have not put back in place yet from having keys cut for them too. It looks like the safe plates/badges have had a bit of a thrashing - not sure what to do with those? The right hand escutcheon is missing the slider and it looks like the left hand door had an escutcheon as well for balance - although no locking mechanism or key hole. Any ideas where I can find a couple of escutcheons as replacements? Which type would have been original - slider or swing?? I’ve scraped away some of that awful paint and the serial number on this one is 90447.

Well - it has been a while since anything was posted - hopefully this may be of some interest. Any comments or suggestions are most welcome.

Tom Gordon

Hi,
First one is 1902 –I don’t think that anything was chromed in 1902 but safes were often refurbished and putting a chromed doorset on, after the 2nd W war, would have made it look like it was filled with concrete instead of the sawdust that is in it.
Second one doesn’t look like a 1938 List 4 (from the lists) so dating is not so accurate. I love the way that they didn’t bother to put an excutcheon on that fitted under the nameplate or even a handle that fitted without overlapping the side of the dooorpiping .
Richard Hunt is a cruel,cruel man.
Cheers
Tom

Huntlocks

Hi Sarah

Crikey - two Milner safes - you need taking in hand my girl! Anyway no need to renew your membership at the gym - opening and closing those doors will keep you toned up eh Tom?

You must have found the safes with the most battered plaques imaginable, in all my years I’ve never seen such flat ones. Trouble is, you’d need to be a metal bashing genius to bring them back. I would watch ebay. They are not heavy so shouldn’t be expensive to send to NZ.

There is a big one, cast, not pressed - so heavy - on Ebay at present. Item number: 110085325836. Would look good on your black safe - if you could get rid of the other pieces of chrome. Perhaps not practical.

I will see if I can find a spare escutcheon in my box - if I can just find my box.

I’ve chucked away a few of those double door safes in my time. It could be made to look good. If you are feeling a bit forensic you may be able to scrape the paint and find the original colours. Look for reddy brown and green.

Don’t know if Tom can lay hands on a print of the advert on the back of the door? I had a reasonable one copied once but not a good result. They all seem to be damaged over the years.

The door hinges will have dropped badly and that is what makes them difficult to open and close. If you are dedicated you can remove the hinges and re make them. Another way for a medium term fix is to turn the safe over and drill the base of the hinge, tap a thread and screw in a lubricated bolt, tack weld into place and flatten off - the aim being to support the door pivot and lift the whole door a millemetre or so.

A really Cr*p way to ease the doors is to fit a shim from clock spring (NO Tom not lever spring!). It will always edge out but for domestic light use you may get away with it for a bit.

If you decide to repaint - what am I saying…? Seal up all the inside corners with decorators mastic. They were not sealed and when you open the door you will suck out small volumes of the fill - what’s left of it - very annoying in a clean house.

Well you’ve cheered me up no end Sarah - just wish you lived in England - you’d have about 20 Milners then!

And a happy new year to you too and the same to Mr Tom - even tho he may not deserve it for bad mouthing me - I know he doesn’t meeeen it.

Good luck and best wishes

Richard

sparkyskey

Hi there Tom and Richard - thanks for your interesting pointers and comments - always good to get extra and informed insight!

Sigh - I think if I lived in England I’d have to buy a bigger house! :-)

I have a small update - started to strip the paint on the 2 door Milner - and it looks like it was a “bank note” green colour - although it may have been darker than this and faded over time? I will also check once I get to the “framed” sections of the doors - as this base may be a different colour?

Richard - if you ever do find your box with the eschutcheons in it I’m sure we could come to some arrangement :-) Let me know.

I didn’t end up bidding on that safe plaque - had a look and it was definitely a nice one - but think I would prefer to stay with an original style (albeit plated tin). I will also have to ask a few questions to ensure the diametre is the same as the ones we have etc. So will keep watching ebay for the time being.

As for the 2 door safe plaques - yes, what can I say but that they are in a very sad state! I think one may have already been replaced - as on the side of each plaque is some writing: one says" improved for the government registry 1849″, and the other says “improved for the government registry & courts 1857”. Any further suggestions on age - serial number is 90447?

I think this safe collecting is definitely catchy - as my father has now bought an older one - but in VERY sad condition. Milner serial number is 149191, which using the previously posted info, he calculates to be made approx 1874. I have attached pictures for posterity, as he intends to completely restore it. Will keep you posted with his progress also.

Cheers for now - Sarah

Huntlocks

Hi Sarah, you and your dad are suckers for punishment! At least his plaque is in (almost) reasonable condition! Don’t forget to tell him about sealing the inside corners before he paints it…he’s going to paint it isn’t he?. I notice in the photo of your double door safe, the fill can be seen accumulating at the bottom. He needs a proper escutheon too, I see. Keep your eye on eBay.

According to Tom’s excellent Milner dating list your safe may fall into the range: 040000/167000 which means 1865 to 1880. Maybe someone with full knowledge could confirm.

I’ve found the box by the way, just haven’t had the courage to look inside yet - I haven’t forgotten - mighty busy thank goodness.

Richard

sparkyskey

Hi there guys. Mum and Dad were down this weekend to visit. So we decided to do some of the “juicy” stuff and pull both door pans off the two door safe to get at the locking mechanism. You’ll be interested to know that both door pans had the (original) wood packing. Our eternal thanks to someone called ‘I Cropper’, who at a guess would have worked at the Milner factory in the carpentry division, as they signed and dated one of the wooden packing sheets. We have a date of 26th May, 1864 with a serial number of 90447. Hope that this is the date of manufacture - if so, about 12 years earlier than we had calculated. There was much excitment and jubilation I can tell you. Hope you’re all well - will post more pictures soon. Next up - continue the trudgery of paint stripping. Cheers for now Sarah …

Paul Prescott

That’s really nice to have. Perhaps when the job is done all the pictures and the story could be condensed into an article for the “Collectors area” of the site ?

Huntlocks

Hi Sarah

Well you certainly turned up a good peice of history there - well done.

In 30 years I have only seen one timber insert in a safe.

Haven’t had the heart to enter my box yet but haven’t forgotten!

Richard

Tom Gordon

A couple of weeks ago I saw a Chatwood list 8 that had been make for a duke- I forget which one. The inner fire resisting protection had been made to allow the wood insert to make it look pretty -oh and it was still covered with the original velvet too.
Cheers
Tom

Huntlocks

Boo hoo

didn’t you get a pic for us?