Looking for the patent for this prison lock

Carlking

It measures 6 × 9 × 1.375 inches, and weighs 9 lbs. The key was hand wrought and pretty well made.

My first guess is; it is Pauly or L.M. Ham, since they both used locks with drilled keys. If it was used by one of these jail builders; they could have purchased them from a lock manufacturer, even a foreign maker like Chubb. I know some early safe manufacturers bought locks from English lock makers.

I haven’t found any any lock patents for this lock attributed to these companies, or the people connected to them.

The keys shown are keys in my collection that bear a resemblance to the key that fits the lock.

Thanks for your help.

Doug MacQueen

It would help in IDing a lock if the lock cover was taken off. Not disputing what you heard about early safe makers using English locks, as it is certainly feasible, but where did you here this and what were the safe makers? Doug

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

Carlking wrote
It measures 6 × 9 × 1.375 inches, and weighs 9 lbs. The key was hand wrought and pretty well made.

My first guess is; it is Pauly or L.M. Ham, since they both used locks with drilled keys. If it was used by one of these jail builders; they could have purchased them from a lock manufacturer, even a foreign maker like Chubb. I know some early safe manufacturers bought locks from English lock makers.

I haven’t found any any lock patents for this lock attributed to these companies, or the people connected to them.

The keys shown are keys in my collection that bear a resemblance to the key that fits the lock.

Thanks for your help.

Removing the cover may indeed help determine the maker. All of the LM Ham locks I’ve seen did have drilled keys and hand made levers. Pauly is a drilled key I have never seen so I can’t comment there. The construction of the case makes me pretty sure it isn’t a Deally either.

I would say that the maker was likely located at or east of the Mississippi since padlocks were still being used I most jails further west until the early 1900’s.
BBE.

[unknown]

Carlking

Doug MacQueen wrote
It would help in IDing a lock if the lock cover was taken off. Not disputing what you heard about early safe makers using English locks, as it is certainly feasible, but where did you here this and what were the safe makers? Doug

When I posted this question, my thought was;
someone who specializes in prison locks would be familiar with the lock and would have the information at hand.
I don’t believe it is all that rare.
I didn’t remove the cover because it is riveted on.
Short of undertaking a restoration, I choose not to remove it.

I don’t believe it is foreign made but I acknowledge the possibility that it could be.

As reluctant as I am to get off into the weeds with a discussion of English safe lock manufacturing;
I believe the attached image is one example of an English lock on an American safe. It is from
a 1843 patent S.C. Herring Salamander. If it isn’t Chubb, Chubb should have sued them.

There was a time when the British dominated lock manufacturing and were able to mass-produce
locks at a cheap price.

My knowledge comes from my 50 years in locksmithing and nearly that many years
collecting all things related to locks and safes. In some cases, the knowledge is
there but the pathway to the source material is lost. Short of the presence of maker’s markings,
the information is oftentimes subjective, when it comes to identifying locks.

[unknown]

Paul Prescott

Thats a Chubb design, but not made by Chubb. However it is similar (not quite the same) as the Chubb 1828 Improved detector lock patent, Chubb have moved onto the Kidney lever design in 1837 (I think) so in 1843 the patent would probably have expired .

I’ve seen images of a number of such locks and I had a copy of a contemporary article discussing the design.

Doug MacQueen

While I have only 40 years in the trade, and as a rule don’ t collect, I specialize in the repair and keymaking of U.S. safes and safe locks of the 1800’s. I had never heard that statement regarding English locks used in U.S. safes, and have never seen any evidence of it as well, therefore the question. By the 1840’s, U.S. safe lock manufacturing was pretty well established, so it is unlikely many English locks were imported by that time. Doug

Carlking

Doug MacQueen wrote
While I have only 40 years in the trade, and as a rule don’ t collect, I specialize in the repair and keymaking of U.S. safes and safe locks of the 1800’s. I had never heard that statement regarding English locks used in U.S. safes, and have never seen any evidence of it as well, therefore the question. By the 1840’s, U.S. safe lock manufacturing was pretty well established, so it is unlikely many English locks were imported by that time. Doug

https://books.google.com/books?id=LqAeAQAAMAAJ&dq=herring%20safe%20detector%20lock%201843&pg=PA127#v=onepage&q=herring%20safe%20detector%20lock%201843&f=false

Found a reference to their using Chubb locks.

Now I remember why I don’t post to sites like this. The permanent residents are always standing by to tell you that you are wrong.

I was just trying to ask a question about a prison lock.

[unknown]

Paul Prescott

In this case and the lock you posted before you are wrong.

Neither of those locks, or any of the other examples of US made Chubb type locks that I have seen images of are actually made by Chubb and I will guarantee I know a lot more about and have seen many more examples of antique genuine Chubb locks than you have.

I’m not saying it may never have happened - but I have never seen one.

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Try searching for Gaylor, an American maker producing a Chubb type detector lock.

Doug MacQueen

Carl, I think you are being overly sensitive here. You have shown that an American maker did claim to be using Chubb locks. Or at least the Chubb name. I only have a fair understanding of the English makers but a much better understanding of the U.S. safes. I would imagine to see the Chubb name on the Herring lock, if Chubb actually made it, but I don’t know if Chubb always marked their locks. That is a question for Oldlock. So far, all of the pre 1850 safe locks I have seen where the lock is an integral part of the boltwork itself, including that Herring, I believe (subjective) were made by the safe maker or a local lock maker. I might think differently if the lock was self contained in a its own case. This construction style is also seen in the earlier Hobnail fires safes. Doug

Doug MacQueen

Here is a picture of how Chubb made that lock in 1834.

Doug MacQueen

Sorry I meant Gaylor.

Doug MacQueen

Here is a later version of the lock after the safes starting using the poured fire insulation.