Sargent mortise lock: What is the function of the two buttons?

EdRouze

Hello, All:

I have an old (1920-1930-ish) Sargent mortise lock that uses a modern style key (NOT a skeleton key). There are two push buttons on either side of the in-out latchbolt. What is the function of these push buttons?

Thanks!

Ed Rouze

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

EdRouze wrote
Hello, All:

I have an old (1920-1930-ish) Sargent mortise lock that uses a modern style key (NOT a skeleton key). There are two push buttons on either side of the in-out latchbolt. What is the function of these push buttons?

Thanks!

Ed Rouze

They are called Stop Works Buttons. When they are functioning correctly 1 will prevent the knob on the outside from retracting the latch and the other will allow it to be retracted. Push one, see what it does, then push the other to see what it does.
BBE.

[unknown]

EdRouze

Thanks … that is what I thought the buttons did, but as the lockset is not in a door, I wasn’t totally certain. again, thanks! – Eddie

Adrian Weber

Never heard of these, sounds interesting, any pictures guys 🙂?

jeffmoss26

Here is a picture from BBE’s site, at least the lock I am most familiar with based upon the description.

http://www.1st-net-lock-museum.com/ca3.htm

peerless

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;ylt=AwrB8pNv7H9T9V4Ade6JzbkF;ylu=X3oDMTI0NXBhN2h0BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANkZDViN2RmOTc5MTdlNmUwMzk5ZTY3ZjI0ZjQ1MmViNgRncG9zAzE0MgRpdANiaW5n?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dmortise%2Block%2Bedge%2Bof%2Bdoor%26fr%3Dyfp-t-222%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26spos%3D24%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D142&w=200&h=200&imgurl=www.askthedecorator.com%2Fartman2%2Fuploads%2F1%2Fmortise-door-lock.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Faskthedecorator.com%2FDoor_Locks.shtml&size=12.3KB&name=…+the+two+basic+types+%3Cb%3Eof+door+%3C%2Fb%3Elocks%3A+the+%3Cb%3Emortise+%3C%2Fb%3Eand+the+tubular&p=mortise+lock+edge+of+door&oid=dd5b7df97917e6e0399e67f24f452eb6&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t-222&tt=…+the+two+basic+types+%3Cb%3Eof+door+%3C%2Fb%3Elocks%3A+the+%3Cb%3Emortise+%3C%2Fb%3Eand+the+tubular&b=121&ni=21&no=142&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11biie49g&sigb=144aijrf2&sigi=11vnen5vv&sigt=12g9udilb&sign=12g9udilb&.crumb=eO1jC5GyKAZ&fr=yfp-t-222&fr2=piv-web

Pressing one button disables the outside thumbpiece or knob requiring the key to withdraw the latch this is usually accomplished by making the outside trim “rigid”. The inside trim is unaffected. Pressing the adjacent button removes this condition. Some mortise locks automatically apply this function as well depress the button EVERY TIME the deadbolt is extended, it will then remain in this state until you manually press the other button. Many a people get locked out of their home by this function due to them believing the whole lock is unlocked because the inside remains open for free egress.

–Vince

PS. (to Adrian) Did you ever think of one day visiting the Indy lock show here in the US? 🙁handshake):
There is SO much stuff that’ll be right up your ally… your head might just explode! LOL!!!

WhiskeyDaisy

Hello Antique Locks Forum! I have two questions that I’m hoping the experts here can answer.

I have an old-ish house with some old-ish doors. One door has the mortise lock with the stop works buttons. After reading this thread, I learned that it is not working properly. The toggled stop works button disables both the interior and exterior handles/knobs. The interior, turnable latch moves the deadbolt, it does not toggle the buttons. My assumption is that the exterior keyhole will toggle them, but we don’t have a key to test. However, this means that you could be locked INSIDE the house (althouh you can’t, as there are two other doors). At present, if we were to toggle the stop works and close the door, we would not be able to open it (without having to call one of you).

If I were able to find the key (it could happen), can the lock be fixed to allow the internal knob to turn freely when the stop works buttons are toggled? In the pictures I’ve seen, I can’t see a way to allow one knob to work while the other is held. How can that happen?
Does it make sense to anyone here that the system didn’t just break and that it was rigged to keep the door from being opened from the inside (and is this a common thing to do/be able to do)?

Thanks!
WD

Pschiffe

WhiskeyDaisy wrote
If I were able to find the key (it could happen), can the lock be fixed to allow the internal knob to turn freely when the stop works buttons are toggled? In the pictures I’ve seen, I can’t see a way to allow one knob to work while the other is held. How can that happen?

Does it make sense to anyone here that the system didn’t just break and that it was rigged to keep the door from being opened from the inside (and is this a common thing to do/be able to do)?
Thanks!
WD

A mortise entry lock is designed so that the interior knobs are always free for immediate exit, this is a life safety requirement and should not be bypassed. The stop work buttons should only lock the exterior knobs. This is accomplished by using a split hub and swivel knob spindle. It is possible the hubs and spindle are not properly aligned or you may have worn or broken parts inside the lock case. This is something a locksmith should be able to easily diagnose. The thumbnail attached may help explain how this works, I hope this is helpful.

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

WhiskeyDaisy wrote
Hello Antique Locks Forum! I have two questions that I’m hoping the experts here can answer.

If I were able to find the key (it could happen), can the lock be fixed to allow the internal knob to turn freely when the stop works buttons are toggled? In the pictures I’ve seen, I can’t see a way to allow one knob to work while the other is held. How can that happen?

As Pete mentioned there is a spindle that goes through the lock and the door. Inside the lock the part the spindle goes through is called the HUB. That hub can be made in two halves, one close to the outside and the other closer to the inside. Typically the one closer to the inside has a smaller hole for the spindle. The spindle is what the knobs are attached to and, for this type of lock, is also in two parts so that each may turn independently, i.e. a split spindle. If the alignment of where it is split is off it may not work properly. It is also possible that the two halves of the spindle can be tightened to much against each other not allowing them to turn independently.

Does it make sense to anyone here that the system didn’t just break and that it was rigged to keep the door from being opened from the inside (and is this a common thing to do/be able to do)?

Another thing that can cause a problem is if someone replaced the split spindle with a solid one. If it is a split spindle then the alignment is most likely the problem.
BBE.

[unknown]

WhiskeyDaisy

Thanks for your help! I now understand how the lock is supposed to work. I’m thinking that the split spindle was replaced with a solid one. That seems like the kind of, uh, work that had been done on the house in the past.

If I ever find the key, I’ll try to get it fixed. However as it stands, the buttons are very difficult to press, so I’m not concerned with them accidentally locking.

Have a great day,
WD

prisoner

BBE wrote
They are called Stop Works Buttons. When they are functioning correctly 1 will prevent the knob on the outside from retracting the latch and the other will allow it to be retracted. Push one, see what it does, then push the other to see what it does.
BBE.

Questionable advise. This is a (trap/thief feature). You push the lower pushbutton in and close the door, you are in for the night, or until someone brings a key to let you out. Someone has to know it does this and can leave trapping whomever is inside (whether desirable, or not). DISABLE IT and don’t wait for the a**hole air conditioner repair guy to close the door and think he is locking it by pushing that button in and not just close the door. It is a FIRE SAFETY hazard and can get you sued if someone is trapped and doesn’t know its function. Additionally if you need EMS, they ain’t gettin in. Smiths wanted $1-200 (mainly for the visit) to disable this function. I just drilled and installed a screw at buttons edge. Another try is epoxy (maybe both?). I do not say you do what I did. I would go to locksmiths and ask for his help. Even worth $$ if he advises you. Not best, but holding so far. IF someone knows better way please let me know. Fixed income (disabled) so money for this should not be needed if a FIY. Other models of this set had screw thread in middle of each button. You turn it and cannot be pushed unless you have screwdriver for access first. Another idea is the smooth area around push buttons should have threading so you can use a type of screw to fasten inside area covering access. PS You have claustrophobia and you will be glad you did not ‘see what it does’. Great site. Only one I found that told me what these parts (formally) did. Cheers

[unknown]

Pschiffe

prisoner wrote
Questionable advise. This is a (trap/thief feature)…… Cheers

Au contraire, it is good advise. No residential lockset is designed nor should be modified to trap anyone, rather immediate exit should always be available from the interior, this is a life safety feature and should not be tampered with. If the lock is not functioning properly, it should be repaired or replaced by a competant locksmith. My two cents.

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

prisoner wrote
Questionable advise. This is a (trap/thief feature). You push the lower pushbutton in and close the door, you are in for the night, or until someone brings a key to let you out.

If you have encountered that kind of situation it means that someone has done a do-it-yourself job and used a solid spindle instead of the split spindle the lock is designed to have. I have an article on one of my web sites that explains spindles in detail, see this link.

http://www.thelockmanpublic.com/inside-knob.htm

There are also other articles there at the same site to help the DIY person do a lot of things the correct way instead of just guessing.
BBE.

[unknown]

prisoner

Pschiffe wrote
Au contraire, it is good advise. No residential lockset is designed nor should be modified to trap anyone, rather immediate exit should always be available from the interior, this is a life safety feature and should not be tampered with. If the lock is not functioning properly, it should be repaired or replaced by a competant locksmith. My two cents.

Pete Schifferli

IF I saw those buttons and did what was suggested (not knowing what they do, or can do) and pushed the top button in and closed the door that is all I would need to find out about what can happen. I would have been locked in. If the active direction is close the door (try it) I would have suggested AFTER changing the configuration try turning the knobs, or seeing what moves and doesn’t while the door is opened. My $10 (what I had to tip someone to come by my back window to catch my keys and free me).

[unknown]

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

prisoner wrote
IF I saw those buttons and did what was suggested (not knowing what they do, or can do) and pushed the top button in and closed the door that is all I would need to find out about what can happen. I would have been locked in. If the active direction is close the door (try it) I would have suggested AFTER changing the configuration try turning the knobs, or seeing what moves and doesn’t while the door is opened. My $10 (what I had to tip someone to come by my back window to catch my keys and free me).

I wish you would quit reading between the lines and misquoting me at the same time. Here is exactly what I posted.

“They are called Stop Works Buttons. When they are functioning correctly 1 will prevent the knob on the outside from retracting the latch and the other will allow it to be retracted. Push one, see what it does, then push the other to see what it does.”

Nowhere did I say close the door and I specifically said ‘when they are functioning correctly’. If you had bothered to digest what I posted without interjecting your own bad experience you may have learned something.
BBE.

[unknown]

bjw

BBE wrote
As Pete mentioned there is a spindle that goes through the lock and the door. Inside the lock the part the spindle goes through is called the HUB. That hub can be made in two halves, one close to the outside and the other closer to the inside. Typically the one closer to the inside has a smaller hole for the spindle. The spindle is what the knobs are attached to and, for this type of lock, is also in two parts so that each may turn independently, i.e. a split spindle. If the alignment of where it is split is off it may not work properly. It is also possible that the two halves of the spindle can be tightened to much against each other not allowing them to turn independently.

Another thing that can cause a problem is if someone replaced the split spindle with a solid one. If it is a split spindle then the alignment is most likely the problem.
BBE.

very helpful, thanks!

[unknown]