National Safe and Lock Co. Restoration

scottfree

Hello Gents! I’m planning on restoring a safe for personal use. I mainly just want something to work on that will look great and be more resistant to intrusion from nosy teenagers than my sock drawer. I came upon this:

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/atq/3520590471.html

The price seems good and everything so far looks to be a fun challenge with the exception of the plate. I found a plate on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261162861538

The seller wants $350 for it, which I am not interested in paying. I offered him $30+ shipping, but we’ll see. He originally had it listed at $1640.

Very often with projects like this, I end up being $1,000 into the project before I realize that I would have gone a different direction had I had certain information. I thought this time I would seek the opinion of the experts before proceeding. Are there any reasons you wouldn’t want to start this project (perhaps the brown paint has irrevocably ruined something)? Is this plate rare, or is this ebay seller out of his mind? Any other tips before I jump in the water? My inspiration for this project is http://www.antique-locks.com/showthread.php/1376-National-Safe-amp-Lock-Co-restoration-project

Thanks!

Dean Nickel

My first question:

Why this safe? You want a historic safe or a project? It is a nice safe don’t get me wrong. It was a NICE safe in its time.

The badge aside it has some level of protection that some safes of today don’t have…. granted to get to that level you will be spending $1000+ in today’s market but it will lack the modern materials.

Now the down side is the lock and the lack of hard protection that didn’t come until about 30-50 years later. You could modify this safe with better protection or leave the lock as is and have a good safe (Assuming the lock is working) with known risk against modern tools. Granted in today’s world almost all safes are at risk but there are some neat tricks they use for that. My only major suggestion would be add an alarm contact to the door as this would at least make it a alarm point that could report in on a different partition of the alarm.

The thing that you might want to look around here and see some of the paint work a few of the members have done. Take a good deal of pictures BEFORE you start and as you go TOO so you know if something isn’t right you can look back at them. Also makes a good story here too.

Dean Nickel

I just noticed…. that safe didn’t make if very far. 🙁rofl):

scottfree

I chose that one because it seemed relatively cheap for a starter into trying this out, although I’ll admit that I haven’t been looking for very long. Do you think I should wait a while? From what I’ve heard, Cincinnati is among the primo spots in the world for finding these old gems (I found out yesterday that my grandmother worked for Mosler), I’m willing to have patience. As for protection, like I said, I’m looking for slightly more protection than my sock drawer. I have a gold/silver/coin collection worth maybe 8k or so that nobody knows about. I don’t want to spend nearly half the worth of my stash getting a safe that will be insurable or equivalent when I’m mainly just looking for something to keep the kids out. I haven’t even locked my front door in years (I live in a place called Loveland, and the name is an apt description). :o:

I know nothing of safes, but I’ve done (very little) body work on cars and I spent about 5 years in the Navy polishing things. This just sounded like something fun to do. Any recommendations for safes? I don’t think I want to spend more than maybe $800 or so on just the safe, and I like history more than security.

This is the one I was originally looking at, it sold:

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/bar/3543937779.html

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it!

Dean Nickel

I was just making sure you understand what you are getting. Some think that some of these old safes are really hard to get into but some are really easy to get into with modern tools. That last one was not too bad.

No need to wait. Post a picture and we would be more than happy to tell you what you found.

My sister lived not to far from there about 20 years ago.

scottfree

Just got the word back from the guy on ebay. He says 309 is the lowest he will go. It is strange to choose an such an odd number to settle on. Is the plate even remotely worth that?

scottfree

Perhaps a better question: Do these plates pop up on a regular basis for a reasonable price? I’m just afraid that I will end up buying this safe only to find that this is the last time I will ever see one of those plates again. I’ve spent maybe 20 hours googling everything I can think of to find another, but I have found nothing yet.

Tom Gordon

The plates are common and he is way too expensive.$75 should cover it -maybe cheaper - I may have a spare.

Dean Nickel

Tom is the man on safe plates. 🙁nod):

scottfree

Halflock wrote
Tom is the man on safe plates. 🙁nod):

I’ve heard! I was crossing fingers that you would see this, Tom. I’d love to buy from you. Thanks for the information and possible offer. Even if it doesn’t work out, I feel much better knowing that it is fairly common and I can commit to buying that safe before someone else snatches it.

[unknown]

scottfree

Got it last night! The guy said it weighed a couple hundred pounds and that he could help me load it. He must have meant 1000+ pounds and that he had a forklift handy. It took 1.5 hours to get it off the truck via car jack and toppled into my yard, another 2 hours to get it upright and off the grass. I didn’t want to do it that way, but I was honestly flabbergasted at how much it weighed compared to my thoughts from the pictures they provided. At least it didn’t land on the front of the safe. It was a fairly controlled fall. I told my brother-in-law I would give him $50 for helping. I gave him $100. The lock is laughably simple (which I don’t mind) and operates very smoothly. I’ve fallen completely in love with the interior art, and I am looking at my options for that. I don’t want to repaint anything on that part, so I’m thinking of maybe very carefully clear coating it to stop any more chipping. Any thoughts? Is that even doable?

The inner door locks did not come with a key, so I’ll need to work that out. A quick google search didn’t come up with much, I’m sure those aren’t hard to find.

I really appreciate the help. I wouldn’t have bought the safe if I didn’t know those plates are able to be commonly found.

Dean Nickel

First off congrats on not getting hurt. Moving safes is a thing that can and does get some hurt and a few dead when talking a fall off a truck. This is more for anyone looking at this and not realizing that this can be a dangerous thing.

Now on to your cabinet locks. You will have to show me the inside of the door but just on the face of them my first impulse is that those might be hard to find.

scottfree

There you go. Sorry about the blur. I can detach them and take better pics of the inside of the locks if that helps. I’m not worried about getting original stuff to put back in. This safe isn’t headed to antiques roadshow any time soon.

Dean Nickel

Well the drawer locks “look” like something that CCL made. The door lock on the other hand is one I haven’t see before so I am not sure who makes that yet. I would need a closer look off the door at the front and back.

http://cclsecurity.com/products/drawer-cabinet/product.php?id=58

This is the modern brother to the drawer locks. You might have to make the hole a bit bigger.

scottfree

Hello again!

I’ve been stripping and sanding and wondering if I’ve been breathing lead based paint, and now I’ve come to the point of needing to remove the lock and such in order to continue with the stripping and sanding. The lock’s original combo was right to 49, left to 21, then right back to 0. After removing the lock, I noticed that there are 4 tumblers. I believe I have read in other places that a full set of 4 numbers is not necessary and 10,000 permutations sounded pretty awful for a safe that seems otherwise primo for its time. Four tumblers would lead up to 100,000,000 permutations. While I was looking up this mechanism, I came across this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1900-early-YALE-Combination-Safe-Lock-INSTRUCTION-sheet-/251236790824?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7ee13228

The bit about 100,000,000 permutations is what caught my eye. From what I could read, this paper has already given me some insight into my lock. What I’m wondering is if this instruction sheet might actually be for my particular lock. I have no idea how many different flavors of locks Yale produced for my safe, but it certainly seems spot on. If there is even a chance, I would love to buy that auction.

So…here is my lock…ugh, the flash from my camera sure makes my keyboard look dirty.

Dean Nickel

I would ask Doug about the paper being right for your lock.

As for the combination being shorter than it should have been it wasn’t uncommon for a customer ask for a 1, 2 or 3 number combo. Heck Locksmiths for safes on the sales floor will set the dial combo the the same single number for all safes to make showing the safe off easy. Once sold then the combo would be changed to something the customer wanted.

I had a request by a customer that was going to be in town for a concert and they leased a safe for 4 days, the combo was a single number.

I NEVER suggest using a shorter combo unless the contents is nothing or not worth much.

scottfree

I ended up buying that auction. It had 4 hours left and only cost me $17.50. Even if it is the wrong model, I can still learn something from it. If it isn’t correct then I suppose I’ll be able to find someone here who can have it.

Onto the next problem:

I’ve been stripping and sanding all day, but I’ve come to the realization that there are imperfections in the metal that I will never be able to get out without sanding for literally days on end or sandblasting. I do not happen to have a sandblaster or an air compressor or the 220V outlet in my garage required to get one set up. I am currently using a Craftsman 3X21″ belt sander with zirconium oxide belts. I’ve heard that for cast iron (that is what I’m dealing with, right? not steel?), people have recommended using aluminum oxide and silicon carbide. The other thing, of course: Does it matter? The last thing I want is for rust to ever a problem, and so my plan was to use some sort of rust preventer/dissolver like Vactan on noticeable spots, then cover that with a filling/etching primer, followed by automotive paint. Should I just primer over these imperfections?

Here are some pics of the latest stuff. The 2nd to last is showing the imperfections, the rest are bits of artwork that I might attempt to use for restoration. Anybody seen this flavor of paint job before?

72FJ40

You mention a belt sander and types of paper; what grit are you using? You will have much better results starting with 80 or 60 grit paper; it will remover paint layers and sand metal where any rust exits. Follow with 120, 180, and 240. A 6″ disk sander will do a much better job than belt sander; electric since you do not have air. Air version would be a D/A sander. Dealing with metal; so all sanding papers are automotive types. A wipe with metal prep or phosphoric acid will kill all rust. Prime with auto primer surfacer. Any imperfections can be treated with a thin skim coat of glazing putty.

Wear a mask when sanding.

scottfree

I am using 50 grit to start with, then 80, then 120, then I have a massive stack of 400 for the vibrating sander. I got a sample patch down to a fine finish without much trouble, but I can see how 240 will be helpful. Right now I think I will be ok using the belt for the exterior, but when I head to the interior I will probably switch over to disc/random orbit.

Back when I was in the Navy we used to use our deployment time to hand craft wedding rings out of stainless steel nuts. We would use women’s emery boards to get the final mirror polish on them. I’m really interested in trying to do this with the interior of the safe and then clear coating over it instead of installing mirrors. I know there are cheaper ways to do this than nail files, but is there anything wrong with my concept?

72FJ40 wrote
Wear a mask when sanding.

I can taste nothing but iron right now. Will do.

[unknown]

Dean Nickel

Ventilation as well. Keep up the good work.🙁y):