A layman's question

anngibson

Hi everyone,
from the northern part of the U.K., I’m new here, though I joined some time ago,) and after browsing for a few fascinated hours, I feel I am the most ignorant member on board, and not just because I’m a woman. (Are there any female locksmiths?) However, I joined in the name of research and the pursuit of just a little, specific knowledge.
Not a collector, I’m a writer of fiction, but I like to be authentic with details where I can, and that’s why I’m here. I’ll try to be brief….

I need to know what maker and what kind of lock (and key) would have been fitted to the outer double doors of a public library - the Carnegie buildings built in the early 20th century, as most of them were in the U.K. I’d like as much detail as possible, no matter how obscure or insignificant, (though there is probably no such thing as insignificant in those mechanisms.)
If anyone knows, or can point me in the right direction for this information, I would be most grateful for your help. My apologies if it’s too easy!
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Scott Klemm

Hello Ann -
I’m from the U.S., so I can only guess what type of lock would be used on a Carnegie library in the U.K. I think Chubb would be a likely candidate, although the locks could vary with each site. Chubb, along with Bramah, are the two best known British lock makers.
You mentioned that no detail is too insignificant. So, I want to correct your statement that most of the libraries were built in the U.K. Between 1889 and 1929, 1,689 Carnegie libraries were built in the U.S. and 660 in Britain and Ireland.
A Carnegie library was built in Colton, California. The town had to provide the property, and Carnegie donated $10,000 for building construction. The building still stands and is now a city museum.
Incidentally, I know at least one female locksmith.
Scott

anngibson

Hi Scott,
Thanks for your welcome response - from somewhere much warmer than here - though I have spent some time in Ca.
And for the makers names, Chubb, yes, almost a household word here, and I had never heard of Bramah until now.
Apart from the maker, I was looking for the most probable Type of lock, and its physical details, mechanism, appearance, material, shape, size, etc. Same for the appropriate key. Can you help there?
Yes, I know there are Carnegie Libraries in the U.S., but thank you for these specific dates and numbers. I meant that most of the British ones were built in the early 20th century, though of course not all. I’d go out on a limb and say they are all still standing, unless war damaged, although many have been converted to other uses, while retaining a smaller library.
If you or anyone else can expand on the lock details, I would appreciate it. If it’s any help, the double-doors I have in mind would be heavy wood and glass-paned in the upper half. It would always have been locked from the outside.
Thanks again for your reply, and the 1 female locksmith!
Ann.

Dean Nickel

Here in the Pacific NW of the US there are at least 10-11 Female locksmiths around here that I have talked to. Two I know are CML - Certified Master Locksmiths and shop owners.

As for the lock. We are going to have to defer to our friends that live over there and we do have a few locksmiths on here that are from the UK. They just might not login but a few times a month in some cases.

If I was to guess it would be one of two types: Full mortice lock or a surface/half mortice lock, not sure what they call it there, because each part of the world has a different definition for some things. Now if the lock was made in that time frame there is a very good chance it would be a lever lock and may have been a one with a detector against picking. So I can give you some as a possibility but I know nothing specific to what you asked. Lets see how close a guess can be.

Tom Gordon

ALmost certainly a mortice lock would have been used, which either used a pair of lever handles or knobs.
The most common types would have been something like a Chubb or Gibbons 3 or 4 lever lock.
Chubb were known for security and Gibbons for heavy duty, especially masterkeyed locks for larger, institutional buildings.
i amm afraid that I don’t really understand what you would like to know exactly.
I am afraid that I have no personal experience of Carnegie buildings.

Dean Nickel

Tom, I maybe wrong but I think she is looking for how the lock would work to a user and how might the key look. How the lock might work if someone had tried to pick it if it had a detector in it. How the lock would look. Things you would put in a book as you would use the lock or door handle.

Tom Gordon

Halflock wrote
Tom, I maybe wrong but I think she is looking for how the lock would work to a user and how might the key look. How the lock might work if someone had tried to pick it if it had a detector in it. How the lock would look. Things you would put in a book as you would use the lock or door handle.

Unless they imported American locks especially, I would expect the most likely answer to be a round or decorated knob centred 5 inches from the edge of the door to operate a bevelled latch. Inbetween the knob and the door edge would be a keyhole (approx 2 inches from the edge of the door). The key inserted in there would throw a rectangular bolt.
The latch and bolt are within one lockcase.
The key would have a plain oval bow with numbers and letters stamped into it
The shaft would have some simple turned decoration and the keyblade would be likely to have both warded and lever cuts (ie on all three sides).

[unknown]

anngibson

Hi Tom,
Thank you very much for your feedback. I’m glad you say a mortice lock wouild have been most likely, that’s what I had in mind, with the little I know. I suppose the Carnegie Public Libraries were what you’d call institutional buildings, and though not always large, security and durability would definitely be priorities. In fact, you’ve made me realise now, that, for my purposes, it would have to be workable from both inside and out, allowing people to work inside with the door locked.

Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear, I write fiction, and the project I’m working on involves some architectural detail throughout, which I prefer to be authentic.. hence my request for some physical details of the most likely lock, and key; colour, materials, measurements, etc.
I didn’t realise it was so complicated, but am enjoying the feedback, and learning.
Perhaps you could also tell me how long such a lock as you have described, would last? I have been assuming it would be almost indefinitely…. perhaps outlasting the door? Thanks again,
Ann

Tom Gordon

anngibson wrote
Hi Tom,
Thank you very much for your feedback. I’m glad you say a mortice lock wouild have been most likely, that’s what I had in mind, with the little I know. I suppose the Carnegie Public Libraries were what you’d call institutional buildings, and though not always large, security and durability would definitely be priorities. In fact, you’ve made me realise now, that, for my purposes, it would have to be workable from both inside and out, allowing people to work inside with the door locked.

Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear, I write fiction, and the project I’m working on involves some architectural detail throughout, which I prefer to be authentic.. hence my request for some physical details of the most likely lock, and key; colour, materials, measurements, etc.
I didn’t realise it was so complicated, but am enjoying the feedback, and learning.
Perhaps you could also tell me how long such a lock as you have described, would last? I have been assuming it would be almost indefinitely…. perhaps outlasting the door? Thanks again,
Ann

Typically steel keys 4 inches long, brass handles and keyhole covers and faceplate on edge of door. It would have been good for 100 years probably.

[unknown]

anngibson

Hello Dean,
and thank you for your information, it’s all very fascinating to a novice such as myself, and I am learning more than I probably need, (good to know there are female qualified locksmiths, not sure if there are any in the uk - perhaps in the cities.)
The general consensus on the turn of the century, Public Library lock, seems to be a mortice or half-mortice lock, and lever as you say. Not so sure about the detector bit, as one of your guys says no record of Chubb having one, however, I can skip adapt to that.
Do locksmiths know the sounds of different locks?
Excuse my ignorance, but would, say a 5-lever lock, have 5 clicking sounds when locking and unlocking? or do other pieces come into play?
You can tell I write fiction…
Thanks again,
Ann.

anngibson

Thanks, Tom,
I especially like the details you describe of the key, and I had almost forgotten about the knobs, so these are also much appreciated.
Sorry my last post crossed with yours and Halflock’s.
I really am grateful for your time and being so informative. It has helped a lot.
Best wishes, Ann.
!

Adrian Weber

Hey Ann,

Hopefully I am not to late. I think they used and still use Bramah locks in the UK. I have seen some in London, not sure if that had been library doors though.

Adrian

anngibson

Thank you for your input, Adrian.
’Preciate it!
Ann.

Tom Gordon

http://www.bramah.co.uk/

Brian Morland MLA Hon

In case it is somehow conected I post this, its marked ‘Carnegie Steel Co.’ - even if unconected it would be nice to know the purpose of the unusual shackle…

Tom Gordon

Brian Morland MLA(Hon) wrote
In case it is somehow conected I post this, its marked ‘Carnegie Steel Co.’ - even if unconected it would be nice to know the purpose of the unusual shackle…

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23957[/ATTACH]

Is it not for locking the chain to make a locked loop around one or two things?

[unknown]

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Possibly but hoped I could find a conection for the Carnegie libarys - for instance were they used to ‘chain’ certain books like the famous
‘chained libary’ at Wimborne Minster. Perhaps the name, Carnegie, is just a coincidence.

Doug MacQueen

Andrew Carnegie, was responsible for hundreds of libraries here in the U.S. Also his steel company, Carnegie Steel Co. evolved into the United Steel Co., one of my former employers. No clue on that padlock though.

Doug MacQueen

Andrew Carnegie, was responsible for hundreds of libraries here in the U.S. Also his steel company, Carnegie Steel Co. evolved into the United Ststes Steel Co., one of my former employers. No clue on that padlock though.

Syd Waterman

By 1905 Andrew Carnegie had provided funding for the building of 671 libraries in America at a cost of Six Million pounds, and in England 325 libraries at a cost of £1,400,000.
One such undertaking was for the building of a new branch library in West Derby, Liverpool.
The Branch Library which has been erected on the corner of Green Lane, West Derby and Lister Drive, through the munificence of Mr. Andrew Carnegie at the cost of £15,750, was last evening formally opened by Sir. William B. Forwood, chairman of the Library, Museum, and Arts committee. The New Library which has been stocked with 8.500 volumes in all departments of Literature is a handsome structure, built from designs prepared under the direction of the Corporation Surveyor.
The building and ornamental grounds occupy 5.731 square yards of land. The entrance hall is octagonal, with doors radiating to the several departments - lending library, general reading room, women’s reading room, juvenile library, and boys’ reading room.
On each side of the doorways there are two alcoves - one of which will be reserved for a bust of Mr. Carnegie. The wing on the left is the boys’ and girls’ reading room (55 ft by 26 ft); the right wing is the general reading room (66 ft by 30 ft inclusive of bays), whilst the centre of the building is reserved for the public lending library, book storage space and a librarians room. The ladies room (30 ft by 20 ft), with separate entrance from Lister Drive, is quaint and tasteful in design, the building had two storey’s and a basement.
A gold plated silver key was PRESENTED TO SIR W. B. FORWOOD ON HIS OPENING OF THE WEST DERBY ANDREW CARNEGIE LIBRARY.
The head of the key, which is elaborately pierced and carved, contains on one side an enameled view of the library, and above is the crest of Sir W. B. Forwood D. L. J. P. in full heraldic blazon also in enamel.
On the other side the following inscription appears:-
Presented to Sir W B Forwood D.L. J.P. by the Library, Museum, and Arts Committee Liverpool on the opening of the Andrew Carnegie Library West Derby 27th June 1905.
The wards of the key form the initials of the recipient “W. B. F.”
The above is enclosed in a handsome velvet case and was specially designed and manufactured by ELKINGTON AND CO LIMITED, The King’s goldsmiths, 27 and 29 Lord Street Liverpool.
Sir William Forwood said that Mr. Carnegie had written to say he was very much regretted that he could not be present to perform the opening ceremony.