Help with Sargent and Greenleaf combination lock Maybe Mosler safe?

kalisgems

I got this safe out of a building I bought. It has been in a fire. I have no idea what the combination is. I have read about the default 50-25-50. But I do not even know if that is for this safe. I cannot find a serial number on the safe. The final patent date was 1866. the number 2124 is stamped on the handle. If anyone could offer some guidance on this new project please do. I do not want to damage the safe. Nor do I want to pay a high price for a locksmith to open it. Thanks in advance!!!

Paul Prescott

For a safe that old the default would not have been 50 - 25 - 50

You don’t have to pay to have it opened, you can simply keep looking at a locked safe ………

Seriously though - if you don’t want damage, then the safe will require manipulating, and that is a highly skilled service that will cost you money, you maybe able to negotiate a better price if you were to take the safe too the locksmith and leave it with him to be done when he has ‘spare’ time but that’s probably the best you will do. It’s going to cost you $$

kalisgems

Ha! That was good. Ok since you seem to know just a bit about safes can you tell me anything about this one? Model, brand, or anything else important? And on the lock can you tell me where I can find what model it is. (3 wheel or 4 wheel) Or maybe that it is neither…and I know nothing. Thank you. This has been a fun find for my aunt and myself. And we are really just trying to beat her husband to opening it!!!! Ok that was a joke but it would be nice!

———- Post added at 06:43 PM ———- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ———-

Do you know where the serial number would be?? Let me guess …only inside the door? Thank you. I have enjoyed reading you post on the site.

Paul Prescott

The serial number will not help you to a combination. There is no way of telling from a photo whether you have a 3 wheel lock (with 1 million possible codes) or a 4 wheel lock (with 100 million)

If there is no makers name on the safe then I cannot say who made it (not that it will make any difference)

I really would urge you to consult a safe-tech. Such a specialist will be able to open this for you in a timely, efficient manner. Unless you really know what your doing leave well alone - opening safes (and having anything worth keeping at the end of it) is really not a D-I-Y option.

Doug MacQueen

Since I make my living opening safes I can tell you that the high prices charged by locksmiths to open safes often reflects the great deal of study put out to be able to open safes with little (repairable) or no damage. In your case it sounds like you want no damage to the safe but somehow think that it also shouldn’t cost very much. I don’t think that logic will get the safe open with little or no damage. Anyway, I can tell you Mosler Bahmann did use Sargent & Greenleaf combination locks in their early years and 4 wheel locks were commonly used during that period.

Dean Nickel

Also even if you did have the serial number and had a reference to the original combination there is a very small chance that in the last 100 years it has not been changed at some point. The whole point of these locks is that the combination can be changed. I don’t open safes but I do work with those who do. Just the cost in some of their tools is out of sight.

I agree that the best price if you have time is to see if you can drop at the lockshop the safe for them to work on it. We do that from time to time. We charge less for that depending on the safe in question.

kalisgems

Maybe I got off on the wrong foot. Of course I would like the safe open. I have a great respect for a locksmiths work. More than anything I am impressed with there patience. Recently we had to pay $650 to have our safe opened at work. I believe My boss thought it would be a good idea to change the combination. Anyway, I asked about out the serial, model and all those other things because I would love to know what we have. I asked with only a picture because I have read through much of your forum and you and a couple others I think you could eyeball a safe and tell everything besides the combination. A good locksmith can be priceless. And worth every dime. I am sure with a little time we will pay someone to come out and crack the safe. Its just not the time right now. It has been really fun watching everyone get so excited about the safe and I highly doubt that there is anything inside.Thank you all for taking time to look at the safe. I will let you know after we get it opened. Thanks again!

Dean Nickel

Nobody is offended. We as a craft don’t like it when someone doesn’t really understand that it takes years of training and some times several $1000’s to do just one type of job within a small part of the craft. Safes would be one of those types of jobs that would fall into this. I also was out of line in not explaining in the correct tone. I am sorry for that.

Collectors can tell a good deal from a photo in quite a few cases. But not always. This safe just happens to look like several different manufactures that were from that time. Without opening the door and looking at how the lock is mounted and several other points we might be able to make a guess but I would be hard pressed to do so with just this photo.

I do hope you find something in the safe as that is a fun thing to have happen. Even if it is just paper the made it thru the fire.

wylk

When it comes to manipulating an older lock such as this, are there problems cause by its age? For example if the lubrication has dried and become sticky does it become difficult to feel the contact points?

On a newer lock, after a fire, a thermal relocker might have tripped. But this safe looks like it might be old enough to not have one (or two). How commonly is this a problem after a fire?

Jim

kalisgems

That is a good question. Over the weekend we all played with the dial. Turning it and listening. It was really cool. When I came up on a sticking point it sounded like a seashell. Meaning air flowing through it. And then as the dial would get tought to turn if you let it go it would move back on certain numbers. And I am sure you guys have experienced this. But I thought it was the coolest thing since white bread!!! lol And Mr. Halflock this is your house I am just visiting. No need for apologies. ANd thank you again for all of your help

Doug MacQueen

Relocks were virtually unheard of on fire safes through most of the 1800’s but several makers did start using them around the turn of the century. Burglary safes were usually built in such a way as to make the use of a relocker redundant. I think I am using that word correctly. In other words they were not felt to be necessary by most in the business. Certainly the once popular method of de-laminating a laminated burglar chest or blowing the door off with nitro, kind of negates the value of a relocker. But as time went on, safe construction went through some changes. By the twenties relockers were seen everywhere and there were several aftermarket relocker companies in business, including many offering teargas bombs. Doug

Dean Nickel

wylk wrote
When it comes to manipulating an older lock such as this, are there problems cause by its age? For example if the lubrication has dried and become sticky does it become difficult to feel the contact points?

On a newer lock, after a fire, a thermal relocker might have tripped. But this safe looks like it might be old enough to not have one (or two). How commonly is this a problem after a fire?

Jim

The first question is a long and complicated one. There are dozens of things that can cause problems. Age and lack of service are just some of them. I have taken a class in this and I can tell you after that week was over my mind was mush with all that one needs to know to open by this method. It is cool to be able to do. But in learning you learn that you have to have a working lock to start with. You learn that you have to be able to tell with just turning the dial if that lock inside is working or not. Once you deduce that you can start the process if it is a lock that can be opened by this method.

Even if this safe had a relocker, I don’t know that a fire would activate a relocker. It is not a common thing to happen as say someone trying to breakin to a safe. Or at least that is the calls we get for safe problems. I would lean to the relocker not being a problem with just a fire if it had one…. unless it had a thermal link.

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