Brief Introduction

Dean

Hi everyone. I am new to this particular forum and look forward to chatting to you all and trawling through the old posts.

I am coming to the end of a full military career and for the last 2-3 years have been unergoing training with various locksmith companys.

I am an advanced student member of the Master Locksmith Association (MLA) and am aiming towards taking the full exam in the near future.

I am very interested in going down the heritage locksmith route as I see this as specialising in a specific field as opposed to the countless general locksmiths out there, but can so far find no training courses as such that solely look at this era of locksmithing. I have spoken to the various persons within the MLA for direction on this, but its a slow process and I dont think progress will be made any time soon.

Can anyone recomed and such training or pointers on how to enter this specialist part of the industry. At 42 years old, an apprentiship is not an option.

Thanks in adavnce.

Dean…

Paul Prescott

To be frank I would not pursue such a course if I were in your position. Working on antique locks is generally a specialization within the locksmithing industry that a locksmith may pursue when he has many years of experience of working with standard modern locks. Furthermore it requires a great deal of experience with different mechanisms and designs & a plethora of skills over and above those of a standard locksmith, such as :

lathe work
spring making
silver soldering / brazing
fabrication

Without the required background, aptitude & experience the most likely outcome is going to be a broken or otherwise damaged lock that cannot be replaced. Furthermore clients for such work generally expect and require perfection 1st time, not a learning experience carried out on their locks.

I appreciate that the locksmith trade is a disaster at present, furthermore I appreciate that a specialization is necessary to survive in it but to try and specialize in antique lock work early in a career is not the way to do it IMO.

I’ll move this thread into the general forum ….

Alan Morgan

Very good idea to find a niche, as OL says general locksmithing is oversaturated.
You would be competing with some truly exceptional craftsmen in the restoration business and also some hobbiests.
One way of pursuing this is to try to get a job with somebody like Blackstage Blackstage lock restoration, rim locks and latches, the rim lock and latch specialists
or you could chase around various museums who employ restoration technicians.

Otherwise try looking at model makers forums, those that create steam engines and such from scratch. These men still retain the skills required and are normally happy to help. If hanging around with a load of beardy, pipe smoking engineers does not appeal, then you probably don’t have the temperment to do this professionally. 😉

Many of us locksmiths do not have the skills or predilection to make locks and keys in the way our predesessors did and can only look in awe at the the work done. See some of the items shown on this site made by Oldlock.

Dean Nickel

Alan hit it on the head. Here in the States I would say maybe one in 1000 would be able to work on old locks and get them working again or even fit keys correctly. If I didn’t have a metal working background I wouldn’t have the skills I need to work on some of my own locks. It will be a long and wonderful road for you. I would suggest getting the training that Alan and Oldlocks suggest as part of it. Collecting your own locks and working on them is a great help with no worries if the customer will not like the work…. and you will learn. There are books on blacksmithing locks if you want to really get into fun. That also might be another way to learn some of the OLD lock making is go into blacksmithing on top of locksmithing. Lastly one thing to keep in mind is there isn’t a great deal of call for this type of work. So if money is the reason you are going to choose this line of work I wouldn’t do it. If you are on the cool factor then by all means go forward with it.

Doug MacQueen

You might have a greater audience if you include the closely related field of gunsmithing. I am on the same path as your stated goal, just a bit further down the road. One skill I regret not having started years ago is engraving. It can apply to both lock and gun work, and is not a crowded field as far as I know. Currently I am adding metal casting to my skills as many lock parts were cast prior to any machining. Since I specialize in working on locks of the 1800 and 1900’s, blacksmithing is not as important as it is on earlier locks although I am interested in it. Hope this helps.

Dean

Thanks Doug. Very interesting.

Brian Denyer

Hi Dean:

That is my specialty. I gather contacts from being a published author with articles about antique, Classic and Obsolete Locks and Keys. Being an ex-Fed does open alot of doors which are closed to others, Security Clearences are needed for some work. Locksmith magazines are looking for articles. I illustrate and use original souce material for the subject matter.

Over the years I have collected a bundle of warding files and old metal working tools to restore and cut original keys and lock parts. Being on Dis-ability Pension helps to make ends meet. Also I do Investigative Locksmithing, much of which doesn’t reach the media.

Take the broken old locks and open them up to see the inner workings and what went wrong with them? If you find some old lock catalogs it may help in identifying what needs to be done also.

Teaching Night School is another alternative for follow up work.
Can’t tell you too much I don’t desire to much competition…

Brian …………………………………….

Dean

Thanks Brian.

Brian Denyer

You are welcome Dean. Just thought about Government Employment in the Security Services at the Federal level. They require a high security clearance and always ask for a copy of the discharge papers. Modern locks are extensions of the antique lock principles.
If you go in person to the Historic Sites, and ask about any restoration work it will pay off sometimes.
Hardly anyone has the background or patience to do the handwork. Highspeed tools only make it easier to make a mistake. Most of the atique pieces were handfitted and to be restored they have to be
re-conditioned by hand tooling.

Brian ……………………………….

Paul Prescott

The problem here is that the OP is looking to enter the trade and specialize in antique lock work. He has not provided any information with regards to knowledge / ability in the skills I listed. As such and with little practical experience in dealing with modern locks to consider working on antique locks straight off the bat is madness IMO.

Brian Denyer

Yes, I have to agree oldlock. It is better to start off with the modern Locksmithing then work backwards.
Skills gleaned from the modern aspects can be applied to the older locks and keys. Strict specialization
in Antiques would be almost impossible without a basis in the modern field first. There just isn’t the same amount of information available to learn about the basics of antique’s. Backtracking is about the only route, and hand tooling practices/techniques are a must. Antiques are enjoyable but the route to build the necessary skills is a long one.

Brian …………………………………

Doug MacQueen

I’m glad this subject is starting to pull out others who share my love of antique lock repair. In agreement with everything said so far with one exception. No doubt there is very little work available and requires numerous skills to get under your belt to do even passable work. Having started out as a general locksmith before specializing in safe opening, the many of the basic skills needed for antique work are generally not found in most modern locksmith shops, at least here in the US. Its all about replacement not repair which is why there are maybe 1 in 1000 locksmiths capable of antique lock repair. Since most locksmiths today don’t have the listed skills they don’t get passed on to new employees. I was lucky to have a boss who silver soldered and taught me how. Without a doubt that skill alone has been of immense benefit over the years but the reality is very, very few shops know and use this skill. Just throwin in 2 more cents worth.

Brian Denyer

Yes it is a constant search to re-acquire the lost techniques of antique locksmithing. Too bad the knowledge gained wasn’t recorded for us to tap into these days. Sometimes it is a combination of guesswork and knowledge based on experience with the old hardware. Brass and Bronze stock is always comes in handy to cut down to form new repalcement parts. One big problem is the rate to charge? It seems lots of people want a bargain basement price so you are working at 2 dollars an hour. The Institutions are much better with the prices. Or as an alternative I will barter the repair for another lock or key I need to fill out my collection. Some of those old key blanks were high security types and have to be cut down from existing keys or better still blanks.
Opening up the old pieces shows impressions left by filing and cutting, which in turn helps with the replacement work.
It is a matter of both collecting and primary research to find and customize ancient techniques.
Even some Roman Empire bronze keys are soldered from 2 cast pieces. I collect broken/malfunctioning locks also as pieces to explore and perhaps find some spare parts. One way to pick old locks is to find out what makes them tick first. Then custom brand lockpicks can be made. Sometimes plastic picks come in handy to open the old timers without damage.
It is a game after you express any interest in antique locks and keys, in terms of the Demolition Site Foreman or Antique dealor.

Brian ………………………………….

Dean Nickel

I agree that we as a craft have lost a great deal. I started my work life as a metal worker/welder so that helped me a great deal. I look back at the tools found in a shop 100-150 years ago and I wonder how they were able to do all that needed doing. But then there were far fewer locksmiths and it was a craft unlike today. Then you were almost a blacksmith. Now we make almost nothing. But the cool factor of being paid to pick my way into a lock and not have to go to jail is still there. I have started to play with making a few locks. We will see how it goes. I want to perfect my lock mounts first.

Brian Denyer

It seems the antique tools were either hand or foot powered. In the Middle Eastern countries today
some examples of this simple human driven technology can be seen. I remember seeing a bowstring driven metal lathe with the persons feet steadying evrything else, while sitting down. But if we look at the old Knights armor and weaponry it may be possible to see some aspects of the Locksmith trade. The ancient Middle East had lush hardwood forest’s until stripped for wood to produce charcoal for processing the copper and tin ore to make bronze. It was an art to burn the wood under a mound of soil to produce the right grade of charcoal to heat the baked mud kilns to make partially refined soft metals.
Even now in the bronze foundry I take my poured casting and dump it in a pool of water to temper it. Vents used to let the broze flow out are thin but almost impossible to bend by hand. Those old bronze keys must have been just as strong? Playing with the ingredients provides a range of metal qualities.
It seems the theory of picking progress’s with the sophistication of the lock. Their are some very good examples of warded pick sets that modern locksmiths can learn from. But as soon as you express an interest in purchasing the picks the price goes up like a volcano. Most of the great items are sold by Antique Dealors. Even when asking about the purchase of a deceased old timers Locksmith equipment the family members go the route of selling to a Antique Dealor instead of others in the trade? Its happened to me lots of times. Of course the items go to other dealors with the big bucks who in turn sell to others at a hefty profit. One annoying point is that a few Dealors want information to make a higher profit and in turn try to charge you the same price as others. That lasts for a single transaction. The next time it is an upfront transaction of trade for equal value.
Also some Dealors like to pump you for information on the technicalities of repairs. One eager Dealor told me that all that had to be done was to “cut this and file that ” so I suggested that he do it himself if it was that simple. A stingy person doesn’t change their stripes in the future and may constantly downgrade your skills and payment. The aggrevation of dealing with them just isn’t worth it.

Brian ……………………………..

Dean Nickel

There are only three types of customers:
A: willing to pay the price for quality service and product.
B: Wants quality service and product and will shop for it.
C: Will take what works and will not pay more than they have to.

I will not deal with C, and B will pay what A will pay or they can go elsewhere. I am too busy to deal with anything less as I have to give A all they deserve. Good service and quality don’t come cheap. I am willing to give 120% for anyone willing to have it.

Locksmithing is very complicated in todays world of laws and restrictions. I have to know the codes for electrical, egress and ADA to name a few. Some things have fines if you don’t or do something. Inspectors can be down right picky.

Brian Denyer

Good observations, and I agree. I like transactions to go smoothly. Although it is humorous because those C types go looking for the minimal price and the same lock and key comes back to me as a
sub-contract from another person acting on behalf of the original customer. This is after I inform them others will bring the restoration or repair back to me and a higher charge will be made.

Yes, the antique Warded Locks are considered to be double sided Deadbolts under the Fire Regulations and the client has to be informed that the door can’t be locked unless there is a key in the device for rapid exit.

The World of both Antique and Modern Locksmithing is quite complicated to move through without knowing the civil and criminal laws and regulations.

Brian ………………………………….

Doug MacQueen

I have read somewhere that there was once a method of hardening copper to be as strong or nearly as strong as steel. Not brass or bronze just copper. According to that article, just how that was accomplished remains unknown. It is interesting to find that evidence regarding soldered keys from Roman times but I guess not so surprising. I have been looking at some 1500’s Venetian keys, thinking they were also most likely soldered together. Hard to tell from pictures. I think this forum would be a good place to collect together the technical knowledge still retained from our past. To that interest, I would be happy to post Linus Yale Jr.s 1856 20 some page dissertation on safes and locks. But I still can’t figure out how to reduce the pixels or whatever.

Brian Denyer

I have repeatedly melted copper, to purify it, and added small amounts of powered graphite to the mix.
If you take the copper just as it comes out of the pouring process and dunk it in cold water then it will have a fairly hard temper.
It works but tends to be brittle, as the amount of tempering increases.
I have an antique huge padlock made by a Master Locksmith from Bulgaria
made from brass and copper.

Brian ………………………………………….

Dean Nickel

So copper works backwards to what brass does. If you dunk hot brass it becomes softer and if you hammer or work it it will become harder.

As of yet I have had no call to work with copper.