Procedure needed to re-set a Sargent Greenleaf Combination lock

Mallard77

I’m new to the forum having just purchased an old Pittsburg Safe Co. safe with a Sargent Greenleaf combination lock and am looking for any information on the safe or lock. I have cleaned the lock and reassembled it correctly, made a setting key, and would now like to get a procedure or comments about changing the combination. There was some information I found on line which sounds similar, except my safe has no alternate changing index mark. I understand how the square drive locks the inner part of the disk but I am a bit puzzled as to how to proceed. The combination requires 4 numbers, the last not changeable. There is a number on the small bronze disk, which looks like 243.

wylk

The exact procedure depends on the model, so some pictures of the lock (dial, back, insides with back removed) would help. If there is no change index it might be a somewhat uncommon “zero change” model. In simple terms, you dial the old combination in such a way that the square keyway in all the wheels line up with the change key hole in the back of the lock (don’t try this without the back in place); insert the key and turn left (counterclockwise) 90 degrees; dial the new combination; turn the key back to its original position and remove. Test it several times before committing to locking the safe door!

Parautoptic

The S+G website has several instruction sheets, I`m fairly sure that the “zero setting” one is there.

Mallard77

It must be a zero change model as there is no change index. How uncommon is this type? This safe is at least 80 years old according to the seller. It does have a serial number on the T handle.

The S&G web site shows a few procedures but the ones I checked have the change index.

I’ll give it a try in a few hours.

wylk

Elsewhere on antique-locks.com is a 1929 S&G catalog that might help identify the model number (look under Advertising Materials and Catalogs) though IIRC there are no directions. Of course an 80-year-old safe could have a much newer lock installed. If you made your own change key, be gentle with it, the real keys have features to prevent over-turning, turning unless fully seated, as well as preventing removal unless the wheels are properly latched up. If your key won’t do this, be as sure as you can that you don’t turn more than 90 degrees, and that you turn it back to the original position. Also, depending on how you made it, be sure the end has a tip to enter a hole in the front of the case which will then ensure the key remains perpendicular to the case while it’s being turned; if the wheels “skew” during the process you won’t set the combination you intend; or, be aware of the issue, at least.

As suggested earlier, pictures would at the very least be interesting to many of us, including your home-made change key.

Mallard77

The catalogs didn’t show my lock. It is very simple in that the gates line up on the bottom which allows an arm, which is pushed up by a cam, to enter the gate. The key was made with a piece of .125″ square keystock, the end was turned, and the other end was bent 90 degrees. Just a few minute project as I have a machine shop. By looking at the inside of the cover, it was apparent that it required alignment and a motion limited to 90 degrees. Clever mechanism, although now that I have been looking at safe mechanisms, I realize that this is just a basic lock. Some of the real complicated locks look very interesting.

Mallard77

Well, that was easy. Just unlock, dial the new numbers, and re-lock. Clever design. I have a few other questions.

What is the rating of a safe and lock such as I have? Is it just a basic, keep out the non-professional? Should I be concerned about (easy) access? I question this because of the much more complicated locks I have seen while looking around for information on my safe.

Another question is, is there any specific do’s and don’ts regarding selecting numbers for this combination lock? I’m not talking about using birthdays or addresses, but sequences such as ascending, descending, etc.

wylk

I tried doing some research on the Pittsburg Safe Company but didn’t come up with a lot.

There were two separate companies. The early one went out of business in 1875, with litigation lasting at least 9 more years between the former partners. I’d guess your safe is not from them. The second one was incorporated in December of 1902 and stayed in business until perhaps 1913 or so, it just isn’t clear. Your safe may be from this era, say 1902-1910 as a rough guess.

I had not realized that the spelling of Pittsburgh with the “h” was not settled until 1911, and had to try both spellings when doing Google searches.

There is an advertisement from 1907 on Google Books which states they use S&G locks: Pacific medical journal - Google Books on page 42.

wylk

laminar-flow wrote
What is the rating of a safe and lock such as I have? Is it just a basic, keep out the non-professional? Should I be concerned about (easy) access? I question this because of the much more complicated locks I have seen while looking around for information on my safe.

Just as a guess, it is probably a moderately good fire safe but I don’t remember when Underwriters Lab began rating safes; check for any labels that might clarify. As for physical security it probably is moderately poor (especially looking at the photos) but is likely to be intimidating in appearance. A skilled and/or determined crook could probably get in quickly but there don’t seem to be many of them these days :-)

[unknown]

Dean Nickel

From a security standpoint: The lock is not very good in that there are several things missing that a modern lock has. For example if the spindle was punched there isn’t a relocker built into the lock body. But there are many more things in a good modern lock. I will not cover the weak points as this is not a secure forum. So if I was going to rate it I would bunch it with a slot or two just above a sentry firebox (Safe). The older safes are good for common armor but that is about it. I have an old safe that I have upgraded the lock.

Mallard77

Thanks for the reply. It sure looks decent as I would have a hard time getting it to open without the combination. If the knob was twisted off, it would allow access to the inside of the disks but how would one know how to align them? I guess that may be too much information to put on the forum.

So can this lock be upgraded? I am an engineer and machinist so I can handle most issues regarding a modification.

Dean Nickel

In short, yes it can be upgraded. Now it is the question of what level of lock you want. There are several levels to think on. Group 2 is a standard lock with 3 wheels. Group 2M has some resistance to manipulation. Group 1 is better than group 2 and has 4 wheels. Group 1R is resistant to manipulation and some high tech attack and is mostly used by governments. Then you have electronic locks for ease of use as well. They will not last as long as the mechanical locks but they are much easier to use. If you do chose an electronic lock don’t place the lock over the hole that you put the cable thru as this is a retrofit. Also use a “Hard plate” mounting plate that will help protect in drill attacks. All these can be purchased thru a good security dealer. Here are some links to some locks that you can get.

Sargent and Greenleaf- Mechanical Combination lock
Sargent and Greenleaf- Electronic Safe Locks-Biometric keypad, high security lock
Safe Locks: Kaba Mas -
Safe Locks: Kaba Mas -

wylk

laminar-flow wrote
So can this lock be upgraded? I am an engineer and machinist so I can handle most issues regarding a modification.

This would be an interesting upgrade because the existing lock does not have a standard footprint, and because the boltwork of the door directly interacts with the lock’s wheels. One of the first issues would be to mount a standard lock which might either require drilling/tapping new holes on the inside of the door, or possibly using an adapter plate if the extra thickness wouldn’t be a problem (I vaguely remember seeing adapter plates for sale but I have no idea where; Lockmasters? Time Masters?). A “hardplate” here would add more resistance to drilling attacks. This assumes you would re-use the existing spindle hole. Note the door is probably filled with concrete or plaster, so a lock with a spindle tube would be desirable. As for the mounting holes there is a template on the last page of the S&G brochure at http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/pdf/630-674_8500_ins_op.pdf. You might also need to drill new holes on the front for a newer dial ring (if you don’t re-use the old one) but hopefully the new ring would cover up the old holes (dimensions are, IIRC, in the S&G catalog). Given that the safe is probably not terribly strong (see http://www.safeman.org.uk for examples of how burglars used to break into older safes), even the lower-end S&G locks (with spindle tube) would seem adequate although I’m rather fond of the 8500 series just because the mechanism is so ingenious (but you would not be able to re-use the old dial). And using an S&G lock, you might be able to re-use the existing dial and maintain the original appearance (current S&G spindles use 5/16-40 threads, vault spindles and the 8400 series use ⅜-30), also check the spline key dimensions in this case.

The next big issue would be how to adapt the existing boltwork to a new lock, probably this is a much bigger issue. Preferably if somebody tries to open the safe (without unlocking the lock) by twisting the handle, there should be no pressure on the end of the lock bolt. The boltwork of some safes/vaults use a twin “pincer” sort of mechanism that puts pressure on both sides of the bolt, but for a small safe another solution is for the boltwork to put pressure on one side, with a small welded bracket on the other side. Or just ignore idealism and do what is easiest as long as hard twisting doesn’t break something that allows easy access.

I hope that helps without being discouraging!

P.S. your existing lock is probably in the 1927 catalog, page 38, the 6750 (the model number was later recycled for a completely different S&G product, the short-lived “Scrambler” lock).

[unknown]

wylk

An example of moderately-good boltwork is in US patent 4,520,736, figure 9. It is lacking the welded-bracket brace I described, which would go just to the left of “80” if included at all.

Mallard77

Thanks for the replies and the research. It looks like if I ever need to keep any considerable amount of valuables in my safe, I probably need another one! How does one go about determining if a safe is “safe”? Im starting to learn a bit from this forum and will keep local searching locally.

Dean Nickel

AMSEC Safes U.L. Burglary Rating Classifications Explained
U.L. Fire Resistive Rating Classification Explained
Mercury Fire Ratings
Here is but one safe company and the ratings.
They make a good BF rate.
AMSEC Safes Commercial Security Safe
AMSEC Safes U.L. Listed Fire Rated Burglary Safes

There are other safe companies out there. The ratings are a US listing. This changes as you go to other countries.

Dean Nickel

If you want a truly hard safe find a canonball safe. They are HEAVY and not cheap to move but are a REAL pain in the rear to get into if you are not tooled to do so. They have not been made in over 30-50 years at least…. I wonder when they did stop making those… anyone?

Doug MacQueen

From what I can tell the Great Depression brought an end to the cannonball era and for that matter many safe companies. Then the concern was more about armed robbery, aka Bonnie and Clyde.