S&G Combo

timof5stars

I’ve just purchased this S&G combination lock. I should have it by this weekend:

[INDENT][/INDENT]

If:

after I actually receive it, and
after I fully comply with forum rules regarding requests for combination assistance

is this a type of lock forum members could assist with or do I need to go to the manufacturer???

oldbiscuit

Tim, If you purchased this without a combination, you just bought yourself a pretty paper weight. Many have tried, but I’ve never heard of anyone ever actually cracking one of these. I’ve got both the S&G 8088 and 8077 and they are very good locks. These locks were originally manufactured for the US military, and shipped from the factory with #25 as the default code. But once the end user reset the combination to their own combo, the default combo would no longer work. I have the change key for mine and have reset my combo and used them, but I’ve reset them both back to the factory default. Hopefully you got the combo with yours, otherwise, Good Luck, Mark

timof5stars

And the answer is…. paperweight!

You were dead-on, oldbiscuit. Thank you for taking the time to explain this. It is an interesting paperweight, nevertheless. It is heavier than any other lock of a similar size. The lock apparently ships from the factory with a default combination of 25-25-25-25-0. Ergo, the first order of business for the owner is to change the combination.

For those interested in more info on S&G model 8088, see this page at the lockwiki:

http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/S%26G_8088

There are some great pictures of the insides of the 8088.

There is also a way by which the lock can be made permanently non-functional. This appears to be by design rather than by accident.

It is built like a brick s——–.

It is also interesting that the US government considers these not just obsolete due to newers models but specifically insecure because it is “easily defeated”. Lockwiki says by drilling then putting a scope on the gateways or fence. It also indicates there are “radiological” methods of attack. I assume this means it can be X-rayed/flouroscoped. As thick and heavy as it is, I assume we are talking some kind of industrial strength equipment.

timof5stars

Now, if I can just learn to ask these questions BEFORE I buy, I’ll be better at avoiding more paperweights.

The problem with S&G is that it looks really nice and I find myself thinking about buying a working version….

Thanks again oldbiscuit.

oldbiscuit

Tim, you’re right on drilling and using a scope to align the wheel pack to open it, however that would leave a hole in the lock which would be a big tell tale sign that it had been tampered with. The easier way would be to just cut the shackle and remove the lock. These locks were considered a tamper proof and very secure padlock by the government in that they could be put on lock boxes, doors and file cabinets and they couldn’t be manipulated open. If the combination was compromised, it was a easy process to reset it on site. I’ve considered buying one that is locked without the combination just so I can make a cutaway lock out of it, but right now I’ve got more projects than time. Keep your eyes open, I just picked up a brand new, in the box S&G 8077 that was made in 1974, that still was set to the factory combo, and I got it for less than $30 with shipping. They’re still out there, just remember to ask the seller before you bid if it has a working combination with it. The change key is no problem as they are a universal key and can be picked up fairly easily. Good luck on your search and have fun with your paperweight. Mark

wylk

The 8088 is certainly an impressive lock, but I’ll take minor exception to “built like a brick out-house”. As has been pointed out, it is designed to prevent surreptitous entry but not destructive entry (and remember that the shackle/staple is probably the real weak link to desctuctive entry). The case is thick but it’s cast pot-metal (zinc alloy). The later 8077 is better in both regards but is basically an 8077 wrapped in a shiny plated steel can with a VERY impressive “shoe” covering the back side (which might be easier to crowbar off than drill). I’ve taken a sample of each and dismantled them from curiosity. They are wonderfully made.

Even more impressive is the short-lived 8065 concealed-shackle combination padlock. It incorporates elements of the 6750 “Scrambler” (it spins two wheels upon closing, to scramble the combination) plus the inertial “accelerator” mechanism of the 8500 series (which I consider one of the very most innovative developments in safe locks ever, taking the mechanics from merely static into the dynamic realm).

As for the warning from lockwiki “Incorrectly dialing any wheel to the opening index and closing the change key hole during step 3 will render the lock non-functional” I’m not sure I understand. This will certainly result in a combination other than what is intended, but if the person making the change understands the possibility, it should be easy to try several alternative combinations and recover. This is a fairly common oops-recovery procedure for safe locks (and is why they tell you to test the new combination).

For a time the 8088 was the standard-issue padlock crew members had to use in ICBM launch control centers. But it is rather unforgiving if you are under pressure to open it in a hurry. During on-site examinations, failure to open the lock after three attempts, in under one minute, while the examiner is breathing down your neck, results in instant expulsion with a trip back to base to explain to the commander why you are too stupid to do your job. The lock used was downgraded to the Sesamee, and now IIRC is a cheap Prestolock.

wylk

To be thorough, some 8088 US patents (not all went into production):

2,673,457 Exposed shackle combination padlock
2,775,112 Combination resetting guard
2,780,087 Combination resetting guard
2,830,447 Combination changing mechanism
2,852,928 Combination lock actuating mechanism

An 8077 patent:

3,533,253 Changeable combination padlock

8065 patents:

2,573,189 Guard for resetting mechanisms of combination locks
2,625,032 Combination lock with tumbler upsetting mechanism
2,658,373 Combination padlock
3,339,382 Combination lock for security cabinets and the like