Sargent and Greenleaf S&G 8077 AC Cutaway Lock

Jack Sullivan

I was very surprised to pick this up from eBay last evening. According to the seller this item was possibly a one-off factory modification of a standard S&G high security model 8077 combination padlock, unused, with original box, combination, instructions & combination change key. List price for the unmodified lock is $362 & I paid $100!

The seller’s story goes that this was a gift from an S&G executive sometime after the 1994 date stamped on the back.

This lock makes an interesting addition to my S&G collection! Now the fun begins as I search for the patent(s) for this lock in my combination padlock file (which I sell on CD-ROM on eBay).

Jack

Dean Nickel

That is a sales tool. It might have been given as you say but there were many more made. I have one as well. No box but I have one a safe tech had until he retired. They are a fun little lock. Good find.🙁y):

Jack Sullivan

Halflock wrote
That is a sales tool. It might have been given as you say but there were many more made. I have one as well. No box but I have one a safe tech had until he retired. They are a fun little lock. Good find.🙁y):

Hi Dean & thanks for the updated info on this. I was going on what the seller had told me as well as the responses I got from 2 S&G lock experts that I had asked about it. I’m very pleased to have found it but still a little puzzled as to why no one else bid on it. I guess that’s just one of those little mysteries I’ll just have to wonder about! :o:

Jack

[unknown]

wylk

The only 8077 patent I know of is US 3,533,253 which is probably stamped on the back of the shoe. There have been several different styles of this lock produced, the patent (reasonably) shows one of the very early ones. I’m not certain what they changed each time aside from appearance aspects (e.g. the dial changed from green to black around 1992).

The 8077 appears to be an 8088 wrapped in a shiny metal tamper-evident case and with the heavy metal shoe added. As such, the 8077 patents might also be of interest. US 2,852,928; 2,830,447; 2,780,087 (which I don’t believe went into production); 2,775,112 (which I don’t think went into production); and 2,673,457.

I find the 8065 padlock even more interesting from a mechanical standpoint, but that’s for a separate discussion.

This particular eBay seller (mightylocks) does have some very interesting items with interesting stories behind them, but in general I find his prices to be rather high.

———- Post added at 09:37 AM ———- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ———-

wylk wrote
This particular eBay seller (mightylocks) does have some very interesting items with interesting stories behind them, but in general I find his prices to be rather high.

I just re-checked his listings, and they are rather ordinary. He used to have some locks that were stated to be prototypes etc. He may still have them, just not on eBay at the moment.

[unknown]

Jack Sullivan

wylk wrote
The only 8077 patent I know of is US 3,533,253 which is probably stamped on the back of the shoe. There have been several different styles of this lock produced, the patent (reasonably) shows one of the very early ones. I’m not certain what they changed each time aside from appearance aspects (e.g. the dial changed from green to black around 1992).

The 8077 appears to be an 8088 wrapped in a shiny metal tamper-evident case and with the heavy metal shoe added. As such, the 8077 patents might also be of interest. US 2,852,928; 2,830,447; 2,780,087 (which I don’t believe went into production); 2,775,112 (which I don’t think went into production); and 2,673,457.

I find the 8065 padlock even more interesting from a mechanical standpoint, but that’s for a separate discussion.

Thank you for the interesting input on S&G combination lock patents. Most of these patents are of particular interest because they were authored by Harry Miller during the time in the 1950s when he moved from Fairfax, VA to Rochester, NY. Except for the 8077 patent which was assigned to S&G, the others you mention (except for US2775112 to Taylor & assigned to S&G) are authored by Miller but not assigned to S&G. This was the same time period & legal situation involved with his work on the MP safe lock discussed in another thread. And these patents were all filed by the same patent law firm as was used by S&G during that period, Mason, Fenwick & Lawrence. I’d love to know more about Miller’s relationship with S&G during this period of transition from independent inventor to employee & eventual owner & head.

Jack

[unknown]

Jack Sullivan

Jack Sullivan wrote
Thank you for the interesting input on S&G combination lock patents. Most of these patents are of particular interest because they were authored by Harry Miller during the time in the 1950s when he moved from Fairfax, VA to Rochester, NY. Except for the 8077 patent which was assigned to S&G, the others you mention (except for US2775112 to Taylor & assigned to S&G) are authored by Miller but not assigned to S&G. This was the same time period & legal situation involved with his work on the MP safe lock discussed in another thread. And these patents were all filed by the same patent law firm as was used by S&G during that period, Mason, Fenwick & Lawrence. I’d love to know more about Miller’s relationship with S&G during this period of transition from independent inventor to employee & eventual owner & head.

Jack

This web site is a great source for patent data on lots of vintage combination locks: Vintage Combination Locks. It’s interesting in regard to this thread because of the reference of US2673457 as one of the patents behind the S&G 8088. This patent has a 1953 filing date when Harry Miller still lived in Fairfax. This is one of his patents with no assignee. Apparently at this early date he was involved with some type of licensing arrangement for his lock patents with S&G. The other S&G 8088 patent, US2625032, was authored by S&G employees Eiffert & Thomas & assigned to S&G.

Jack

[unknown]

wylk

Jack Sullivan wrote
The other S&G 8088 patent, US2625032, was authored by S&G employees Eiffert & Thomas & assigned to S&G.

That’s actually not an 8088 patent, it’s an 8065 patent. Was its “Tumbler Upsetting Mechanism” incorporated into the 8088 or 8077?

[unknown]

Jack Sullivan

wylk wrote
That’s actually not an 8088 patent, it’s an 8065 patent. Was its “Tumbler Upsetting Mechanism” incorporated into the 8088 or 8077?

Could be. I only quoted the web page reference. I only posted ‘one of the patents behind…’, which is correct.

Anything is possible, I guess!

[unknown]

wylk

OK, I see what happened. That patent number is cast into the back of most 8088 padlocks (except the very early ones, which state “PAT PEND” and were known as the model 1951). So the mechanism possibly was part of the 8088 though I’ve seen cases where patent numbers were displayed that were not relevant. I might dig out a cut-open 8088 I have and compare it to the patent. I do know the mechanism was part of the 8065 and can also be described as a predecessor of the S&G “Scrambler” lock’s main feature.

Jack Sullivan

I have other S&G combination locks that I would like to convert, if possible, to their cutaway equivalents. I have access to a local machine shop but I need some guidance before moving forward. Is cutting a hole in an intact steel lock one way of doing this or is their too much risk of damaging the mechanism or in getting minute steel particles into the mechanism? Is is better to have the lock first disassembled, then the hole cut, then have the lock reassembled? If the latter is the preferred route, can anyone recommend a locksmith for doing the disassembly/reassembly? Lastly, do S&G locks have steel construction that would make them difficult for the average machine shop to cut the hole?

Jack

wylk

Jack Sullivan wrote
Is cutting a hole in an intact steel lock one way of doing this or is their too much risk of damaging the mechanism or in getting minute steel particles into the mechanism?

The general answer to most of your questions is “it depends”. It depends on the lock, its construction, and where you intend to cut. The factory cutaways are usually done before assembly, and some locks (such as the 8088/8077/8065) are assembled in a semi-permanent manner (that is, they are not intended to be disassembled and in fact it’s rather difficult to take them apart). In some cases it might be a high risk to damage the mechanism and even if it’s not, getting “junk” into it is almost guaranteed.

Jack Sullivan wrote
Is is better to have the lock first disassembled, then the hole cut, then have the lock reassembled?

Yes, this would be best in most cases.

Jack Sullivan wrote
If the latter is the preferred route, can anyone recommend a locksmith for doing the disassembly/reassembly?

I don’t know of any to recommend. As I mentioned earlier, some are quite difficult to disassemble without damage (such as the 8077) while others like the common safe locks might be close to trivial.

Jack Sullivan wrote
Lastly, do S&G locks have steel construction that would make them difficult for the average machine shop to cut the hole?

I think many have zinc die-cast bodies such as the safe locks which is very easy to cut. The 8077 is a challenge because the outer shell is thin steel and surface is not flat where it was cut for the lock that started this thread. Note that sometimes a good cutaway does not have a round hole, it may use a rectangular one; some locks I’ve seen use several holes depending on what is being exposed.

If you can find pictures of a sample of a specific cutaway lock, that can be a big help in deciding where to cut. I have a very small collection of cutaway images, and books like “The Padlock Collector” have a few samples.

I hope this helped without being too discouraging!

[unknown] [unknown] [unknown] [unknown]

Dean Nickel

I will second that this lock would be very hard to get apart and then back into one working lock. They do show up on ebay every now and again…. I have seen 3 to date but I wasn’t looking for them as I already have one, more than cutaway locks.

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

Just something interesting about cut-aways, most manufacturers make limited runs of particular locks in a cut-away mode. When they do that it is an almost universal rule that ALL cut-away locks are on the same combination or key. As an example, until quite recently you could purchase a cut-away version of the large S&G environmental padlock popular with the railroad industry and every one of them were KA.

Typically cut-away models are given to sales representatives to use in selling the product and many times if they show you one will give it to you if you ask for it. That responce is somewhat less now and you can order the cut-away versions from some manufacturers. The production of cut-away models is not as prevalent today as in past years.

The really interesting thing is that they sell for quite high prices on Ebay and elsewhere but typically the manufacturer will sell them at only a slight increase over the normal price for the product.
BBE.

Halflock wrote
I will second that this lock would be very hard to get apart and then back into one working lock. They do show up on ebay every now and again…. I have seen 3 to date but I wasn’t looking for them as I already have one, more than cutaway locks.

[unknown]

Doug MacQueen

A Dremel grinder is very handy for making involved cutaways. Here are few pics of a Fichet cutaway lock I was going to make a pick for. It is very important to know what can and cannot be cut and still have a functional lock. That little S&G padlock does not lend itself to an involved cutaway due to so many small parts relying on the case for proper alignment and function. But just to make a round hole like the one shown here should not be too difficult. Any thing more involved and I would dispense with outer steel shell. If I remember correctly once the lock is unlocked you slide the heavy cover off. This exposes access to the inner lock case which could then be removed. Doug

Jack Sullivan

BBE wrote
Just something interesting about cut-aways, most manufacturers make limited runs of particular locks in a cut-away mode. When they do that it is an almost universal rule that ALL cut-away locks are on the same combination or key. As an example, until quite recently you could purchase a cut-away version of the large S&G environmental padlock popular with the railroad industry and every one of them were KA.

Typically cut-away models are given to sales representatives to use in selling the product and many times if they show you one will give it to you if you ask for it. That responce is somewhat less now and you can order the cut-away versions from some manufacturers. The production of cut-away models is not as prevalent today as in past years.

The really interesting thing is that they sell for quite high prices on Ebay and elsewhere but typically the manufacturer will sell them at only a slight increase over the normal price for the product.
BBE.

I hope you use ear protection while working with a Dremel tool. I had occasion to use one in a local electronic assembly factory & those decibels can help make your hearing go away permanently! You put on the sound-deadening earphones before you plugged in the Dremel.

I think you all have answered my question about creating cutaway combination padlocks: not a realistic way to go for the inexperienced amateur!

Jack

[unknown]

Jack Sullivan

I just listed this on eBay #361177778375.