Cast steel safe

darryl.k

My second project on the go!

Just picked up this small cast steel safe, only about 16″ high, just about lift it on my own. Can any one identify the make as it has no makers name on it any where?

Its cast steel with a warded lock. No welding, all riveted together. Quite a rough sand cast, great to see all the imperfections from when it was made.

Came with no key. Does any one know where I can get a warded key cut easily? Otherwise I was going to get one CNC wire eroded.

Otherwise I don’t know much about. I’m pretty sure the green paint wasn’t original and was in a poor state, so I had it all shot blasted off. Any help or comments would be appreciated?!?

Russell Stoner

Hi Darryl

This lil plate safe could be an early J Cox

In the early days Cox used to stamp their name on the back of the door.
I’ve seen these sold in the region of £40-£100 in tatty condition.

Are there any markings on its lock?

Regards

Russell (Withy Grove)

QUOTE=darryl.k;7378]My second project on the go!

Just picked up this small cast steel safe, only about 16″ high, just about lift it on my own. Can any one identify the make as it has no makers name on it any where?

Its cast steel with a warded lock. No welding, all riveted together. Quite a rough sand cast, great to see all the imperfections from when it was made.

Came with no key. Does any one know where I can get a warded key cut easily? Otherwise I was going to get one CNC wire eroded.

Otherwise I don’t know much about. I’m pretty sure the green paint wasn’t original and was in a poor state, so I had it all shot blasted off. Any help or comments would be appreciated?!?

[ATTACH]4780[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]4781[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]4782[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]4783[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]4784[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]4785[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]

darryl.k

Hi Russell,

No there are not any markings on the lock at all. I cannot find any thing to give a clue. No stamps, no marks, no name plate, no key.

Although I have now bought a blank pipe key that I’m in the process of reverse engineering the design to suit the wards, its great fun, currently cutting it to suit, long but worth while job!

I’ll get some more pics up as I go.

darryl.k

First reverse engineer the dimensions and make a practice one out of cardboard.

Buy a blank pipe safe key the nearest size and machine and bench fit to suit.

Lots of needle file and eye glass action. I broke my last 0.9mm abrafile, any one got any spare?

Chain drill 1.0mm holes on a pillar drill by eye, how I wish I had a mill or wire eroder!

Front end done, just to file the rear end for the back set of wards.
They must of had a lot of patience back in the old days thats all I can say!
Some one said it might be a Cox safe, but there are no markings, any one got any other suggestions? There are no markings or numbers at all.

Not sure what colour to do it either?!?

Doug MacQueen

Now we’re talking. Great photos and and from what I see so far, great work, Darryl. I know not many on the forum do this kind of work but I do and I can appreciate what you are doing. Don’t you love it when you read in old lock books where they talk about how easily warded keys were cut from taking wax or smoked trials to make a key. I don’t think they actually ever tried to actually do it. I am interested in the book that sells the blanks. Here in the States we just don’t see the larger barrel keys much at all. Doug

darryl.k

Hi Doug, thanks for the comments. I used to be a precision Toolmaker for Parker Pen working to very fine tolerances, so playing with this kinda stuff is really interesting and fun and it gives me an excuse to use my tools! Its great seeing how they tried to make things back then with tools that by today’s standards were poor quality.

The key catalogue is SKS keys, you can download it here:

360 SKS Key Blank Catalogue

Shall post up some more photos soon!

darryl.k

I have now finished the key! It took so long, but worth it. It was very satisfying when I’d made the final cut, fitted the lock and turned the key to see the bolt shoot across. A nice feeling considering it may not have worked for some 10 to 40 years, who knows!?

Need to make an even smaller key for the drawer now.
More pics to come.

Comments welcome!

Russell Stoner

Crackin job D.

If you want another project, I have up for grabs a lock, with key from a Church Vault door.

We decommed the door some years ago & the lock just couldnt be thrown out. It is c1880!

I’m open to offers

Regards
Russell
Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 044 (0)113 2721441

darryl.k wrote
I have now finished the key! It took so long, but worth it. It was very satisfying when I’d made the final cut, fitted the lock and turned the key to see the bolt shoot across. A nice feeling considering it may not have worked for some 10 to 40 years, who knows!?

Need to make an even smaller key for the drawer now.
More pics to come.

Comments welcome!

[unknown]

Timbo

Hi Darryl,
Nice job on the key by the way, looks good.
Have you tried to get hold of a key saw to do the smaller lock ? I remember some years ago, I had to cut a very large church door lock cast key, it was about 9-12 inches long !! Took me about a day and a half to get done with a key saw but ended up absoloutely fantastic. Well done and good luck with the smaller one.
Tim 🙁clap):

darryl.k

Thank you… That reply was such a great help!

I’m an Engineer and searched for everything I knew of, but key saws! They look like small broaches?!

I Looked under;
Abrafiles
Saw files
Needle Files
Riffler files
Swiss files
Coping saws

Most of which just are not small enough. Struggling to find anything under 1mm

Timbo

Hi Darryl,
I think the mimimum keysaw blade you can get is 1mm. Anything else will just snap on the pressure of cutting. I have cut many warded keys with these saws and found 1mm is fine for 99% of keys. If you can’t get a keysaw, get in touch and will talk about options.
Tim

Chris Belcher

That is a nice piece of restoration and key making
SKS, where you got the key blank from, sell Key saws and blades.
Regards

Russell Stoner

Hi Darryl

Here’s an interjestion re its original make. If by chance the name Carron, or letters CIW are stamped anywhere on the body/door/back pan. then… i have your answer.

CIW stands for Carron Iron Works, of Falkirk, Scotland. Carron took the name from the Carron River. They formed in 1759 & opened their steelworks on 26th Dec 1760. Carron were the largest steel producers in Europe & had a workforce of 2000 men. They were at the backbone of the Railways & shipping industry & used to make short range cannon for the navy. If you’ve heard of Carronade of cannon, it was said or still may be said when cannon were shot one after the other.
Carrons also made strongboxes between 1820-1880’s in the same/similar design to yours.
An image can be seen on www.safeman.org
Carrons eventually went into liquidation in 1982. They still trade today making Taps for kitchens…

Hope you like the history lesson.
Russell
Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 0113 2721441
www.wgsafesonline.com

darryl.k wrote
Thank you… That reply was such a great help!

I’m an Engineer and searched for everything I knew of, but key saws! They look like small broaches?!

I Looked under;
Abrafiles
Saw files
Needle Files
Riffler files
Swiss files
Coping saws

Most of which just are not small enough. Struggling to find anything under 1mm

[unknown]

darryl.k

Hi Russell,

Thanks for the info, sounds interesting. Unfortunately I have looked every where and there are no markings what so ever. I can only guess going by the rough workmanship that it was just a mass produced generic safe and no one has marked it or bothered to put their name to it, who knows?!?

I did see one on Ebay with a similar style recently and another with an identical escutcheon, but the seller’s didn’t / couldn’t convey any info to help me. So the search is still on.

I have now finished the undercoat and trying to decide on a colour… not too sure what to go for?!?

Russell Stoner

Hi Darryl

Stay true to the original colours.

I sold off a dozen of my old safes to a guy up north, i’ve seen 3 of them on ebay today, they look good…but.. now look like modern safes. Arrrrrgh….🙁n):

You just cant beat originality!

Regards
Russell
Withy Grove

Any comments guys n gals?

darryl.k wrote
Hi Russell,

Thanks for the info, sounds interesting. Unfortunately I have looked every where and there are no markings what so ever. I can only guess going by the rough workmanship that it was just a mass produced generic safe and no one has marked it or bothered to put their name to it, who knows?!?

I did see one on Ebay with a similar style recently and another with an identical escutcheon, but the seller’s didn’t / couldn’t convey any info to help me. So the search is still on.

I have now finished the undercoat and trying to decide on a colour… not too sure what to go for?!?

[unknown]

darryl.k

Russell - I want to go original colours, but I don’t know what they were. The green and gloss magnolia paint that was on it, definitely were not original. So I’m going to get the British Standard colour chips out and find some old vintage colours. Green, brown, dark red???

I often look on Ebay and see old safes painted up, I really don’t like them. They often say refurbished, although I don’t consider a slap of paint in non original colours refurbished. Not to my taste. I hate the thought of the seller just selling them to the scrap metal merchant if they get the money they want for them! Old safes will be a thing of the past if they keep getting scrapped :-(

Russell Stoner

Hi Darryl

If the original was a red base colour, i would suggest a sort of brownyred/dirty bergundy for the exterior & a victorian white to its interior. Vick white is like a white with a tinge of cream..

Russell

darryl.k wrote
Russell - I want to go original colours, but I don’t know what they were. The green and gloss magnolia paint that was on it, definitely were not original. So I’m going to get the British Standard colour chips out and find some old vintage colours. Green, brown, dark red???

I often look on Ebay and see old safes painted up, I really don’t like them. They often say refurbished, although I don’t consider a slap of paint in non original colours refurbished. Not to my taste. I hate the thought of the seller just selling them to the scrap metal merchant if they get the money they want for them! Old safes will be a thing of the past if they keep getting scrapped :-(

[unknown]

NatSafeMatt

ya can’t beat the originals….anything else would be de-facing. Right down to the OIL paintings and 23KT gold leaf gilding…NO DECALS!!!…lol.

darryl.k

I have now removed all the paint from the old screws / bolts which hold the inner plate and lock onto the door. They are so roughly made (which is great!) you can see all the old marks where they have been held and formed. Even the heads have been centre punched to denote which hole they go in 1, 2, 3 and 4! The smaller screws hold the lock into the draw.

I cannot match the thread to any standard thread sizes and really wanted to run a tap down the holes to clean them out. I think back then they may of hand cut their own threads; that is another black art that even I would be testing my engineering skills to the limit.

darryl.k

I have taken the escutcheon off although unfortunately it is incomplete. This shouldn’t be too much of a problem as I shall make the missing brass part that I guess slides up and down?!?

It has very distinctive lines scribed round the edges. I have the spring that pushes the lever back and the original screws to attach it to the front of the safe.

Does any one know what it would of looked like and how the mechanism works? My knowledge is quite poor around escutcheons.