protector lock key duplication

Gary Stephenson

were any of the companies that made protector locks Kromer, Stuv, bode panzer etc, able to cut keys just from the locks serial number and records, or did they at least need a key, or even the key and the lock to produce duplicate keys?

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
were any of the companies that made protector locks Kromer, Stuv, bode panzer etc, able to cut keys just from the locks serial number and records, or did they at least need a key, or even the key and the lock to produce duplicate keys?

Hello Gary - how’s your German?
Perhaps you can interpret what’s illustrated from the pictures.
Taken from the Kromer centenary brochure. Capassacus ? would be in the best position to help you.

[unknown]

Cepasaccus

The process to make a lock with keys was to first cut the keys and then insert one of these keys into a lock like machine together with tumblers where the ends were to long. Turning the key moved the tumbler into the open position and then the ends were cut. AFAIK Kromer did not store key encoding. There is also no German tradition for this like in the US. So at least a key is required to get a new one.

In safeman’s photo 4 is a machine for cutting the initial keys. Photo 5 shows a machine making tumblers. They don’t say for which locks and I can’t recognize the tumblers. It is possible that these were used for Protectors or Novums or only one of these. The Novums were also made by starting with the keys and then use one to unlock a tumbler pack without gates to prepare it for milling the gates. If you take a Novum pack and align the gates then you will see on most perfectly aligned two anti-picks on each side of the gate.

safeman

Cepasaccus wrote
The process to make a lock with keys was to first cut the keys and then insert one of these keys into a lock like machine together with tumblers where the ends were to long. Turning the key moved the tumbler into the open position and then the ends were cut. AFAIK Kromer did not store key encoding. There is also no German tradition for this like in the US. So at least a key is required to get a new one.

Very grateful Cepasaccus. Thank you on behalf of Gary.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

From memory there’s a member who’s very experienced with kromer protectors and all things kromer, think it was probably oliver in Germany.

Also in germany recall Adrian (dicey), mentioned a few times the bench engineer that worked and set all the machines- think it was kromer but might’ve been one of the other factories.
Think he knew him either from business visits or factory tours, but can’t remember exactly.

Tom Gordon

Huw Eastwood wrote
From memory there’s a member who’s very experienced with kromer protectors and all things kromer, think it was probably oliver in Germany.

Also in germany recall Adrian (dicey), mentioned a few times the bench engineer that worked and set all the machines- think it was kromer but might’ve been one of the other factories.
Think he knew him either from business visits or factory tours, but can’t remember exactly.

it was certainly the case for Chubb detainer locks that the keys were cut and then the detainer slots cut to the keys whilst held in a jig - and probably still is.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

cheers all, I have 3g110 detainers and 6k174 levers uncut, I had been told that the protector keys could be cut from serial number and factory records, but thought that unlikely.

Gary Stephenson

I have turned up a pair of Kromer protector keys that have Chatwood Milner Ltd stamped on the Keybow, I have seen pictures of Chubb, Chatwood and Chatwood milner marked protectors, and also seen them on Stratford FTS strongroom doors, did any other uk makers use them?
lock number was 279405
B for bottom lock
safe number S50481

Cepasaccus

From the serial I think this one is second half of the 20s, if that helps.

Gary Stephenson

cheers

Gary Stephenson

Hiya cepassacus, curious with your dating for the keys/lock, I thought Chatwood Milner Ltd didn’t exist before 1956, so that is interesting, the keys do look original though.

Cepasaccus

I am collecting all serial number / date pairs from Kromer Protectors and Kromer combination locks that I can lay my hands on. Serial numbers come from the locks, dates from the locks, the safes the locks were installed, patent dates, catalogs, etc.. I do have a gap from about 1900 to about 1930 and the first lock after this gap is with serial around 310000. From a linear interpolation, which is reasonable according to how the values generally develop, I think it is about second half of the 1920s. In 1956 the serial number would have been around 420000. Of course only if this is a regular serial number from Kromer and not one from Chatwood Milner.

Gary Stephenson

to be honest the CM ltd stamping on the keys took me by surprise a bit, and your dating would seem more realistic to me. I am now wondering if A Chatwood Milner technician serived the seafe and locks and updated the key stamps for the new CM branding, will see if I have any info on the safe serial number, to see if that clarifies anything.

Gary Stephenson

Gary Stephenson wrote
to be honest the CM ltd stamping on the keys took me by surprise a bit, and your dating would seem more realistic to me. I am now wondering if A Chatwood Milner technician serived the seafe and locks and updated the key stamps for the new CM branding, will see if I have any info on the safe serial number, to see if that clarifies anything.

the S50481 serial number would be somewhere between 1929 50,000 and 1935 53,500

[unknown]

Cepasaccus

There is at the moment a BP55K with three “working” SBE lafette keys for sale with a price tag of 460€. One of the keys (with the BP55K imprint) is original. Two are bad copies. For the bad copies to work at least one of the tumbler had to be modified. This is the tumbler which interacts with grooves running along the key stem on both sides. The visible groove is missing the exit for the tumbler nose to ride along while the key is turned. Sadly no photo of the other side of the keys.

Gary Stephenson

Noticed that, and wasn’t sure if there was enough tolerance in that lever to allow the crappy copies to work, or if the lock had to be doctored.
Were original blanks ever available or these, or did keys officially have to be sent to Kromer for copies? I wonder if that no6 position was the same always, and the blanks came with that side angle cut into the stem slot already done.

Cepasaccus

The current and only catalogue of Lebtig has depictions of blanks. These are the two Protector blanks. Preparing generic cuts would make logistics more difficult, because it blows up these two blank type to eight. There are left and right handed locks which need mirrored cuts and there are the BP55K Protectors and the simpler 2040 type Protectors. AFAIK blanks were and probably are still available, but not in the same quality as in the past. Difficult to say what is still available without trying to order it and I didn’t order blanks so far. Not available from the catalogue are all large combination locks, nearly all dials, all bolt works. Available are the standard sized combination locks, EuroNovum locks and change keys, also for the big locks. In case someone wants something from them …

Huw Eastwood

Back when I was working for smp we used to see hundreds of those round protectors on the big tann RDV’s used by one of the big supermarket chains.

Personally i really liked them as they were nice to work on and it was the same old problems that used to arise so were pretty predictable.

But, it was just as well the majority of problems were easy solved as the locks were held together with hardened shear screws and from memory zero parts including blanks were available. This was through the 1990s to 2000s and iirc kromer were still around back then but weren’t supplying the essential spares that were desperately needed.(just like fichet bauche). As a result, most, if not all the protectors got converted over to the 520 locks.

Tom Gordon

Gary Stephenson wrote
Hiya cepassacus, curious with your dating for the keys/lock, I thought Chatwood Milner Ltd didn’t exist before 1956, so that is interesting, the keys do look original though.

I believe that all the locks were supplied with Kromer keys that Chatwood chopped the bows off of and then soldered on their own. They may have refurbished the safe or lock at a later date. When they refurbished a safe they certainly fitted new brass work with the then current addresses/details.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

Cheers all, for the replies, I remember getting a load old Aldi protectors and tubes at one time Huw.
It always surprised me Tom that Chatwood would use someone else’s Locks, was it just a supply thing, where they got busy and couldn’t keep up?