Ratner R1 jcm thoughts?

Gary Stephenson

Any thoughts on this?
bought it advertised as Ratner, but looks unlike any Ratner I have ever seen. My initial thoughts were it may be an adapted or repaired lock, but now I have seen it close up it doesn’t look adapted or bodged. The quality is rougher than I would expect from Ratners I have seen, but all the its look as if they were made for each other rather than adapted from a standard Ratner style case.

Gary Stephenson

more pictures

Gary Stephenson

put a more standard Ratner lock for comparison including overlaying the cap to show the similar pattern.
Any thoughts welcome.

Cepasaccus

I totally agree that it doesn’t look like a Ratner. That style of levers with these springs looks so awkward. Could it have been built as a replacement for a Milner? Six mounting holes, V key way,

Paul Prescott

I think it’s OK. Really late in the history of the company. I had a changeable lock with a casting that was very similar and just as rough too.

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
put a more standard Ratner lock for comparison including overlaying the cap to show the similar pattern.
Any thoughts welcome.

Ratner C12-S2 Not much help I’m afraid.

[unknown]

safeman

Cepasaccus wrote
I totally agree that it doesn’t look like a Ratner. That style of levers with these springs looks so awkward. Could it have been built as a replacement for a Milner? Six mounting holes, V key way,

You are right, it is of dreadful quality and unlikely to have been made by Ratner.

A possible answer is that when WRC Ratcliff took over the Company he made an injudicious purchase of safes that didn’t sell and which led to financial difficulties.

[unknown]

safeman

safeman wrote
You are right, it is of dreadful quality and unlikely to have been made by Ratner.

A possible answer is that when WRC Ratcliff took over the Company he made an injudicious purchase of safes that didn’t sell and which led to financial difficulties.

Also ;
Ratner had, from their inception, their own lockmaking department. Like all safe lock makers many prototypes and specials were produced in addition to the standard production models illustrated here. There are some tantalising rumours about special Ratner projects for the South African mining community or their operations in Australia, which in some cases demanded variations to the standard lock range.
(Brian Morland Lockpedia.)

[unknown]

Cepasaccus

safeman wrote
A possible answer is that when WRC Ratcliff took over the Company he made an injudicious purchase of safes that didn’t sell and which led to financial difficulties.

Did I undestand this correct? “took over the Company” = Ratner? “purchase of safes” = Milner’s safes?

[unknown]

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Hi Gary

I’m going to be in the Rugby Heritage Room on the 29th January. If you can make it on that day with your lock we can explore it, needless to to say anyone else can come along as well. I will bring along my Ratner files from the Archive and of course a selection of additional Ratner locks not already on display as well. It will be a good day if 2 or 3 or more of us can explore it together. I will also bring along some light refreshments…

safeman

Cepasaccus wrote
Did I undestand this correct? “took over the Company” = Ratner? “purchase of safes” = Milner’s safes?

W R C “Ronnie” Ratcliff was the grandson of the founder Daniel Ratcliff and doubtless inherited the Company on the death of his Father - W M Ratcliff.

Apparently he had a serious fall-out with his Father and they did not communicate with each other which was one reason that attempts to purchase the Company by J W Levy in the 1950s failed.

When “Ronnie” took charge the Ratner range of safes were very expensive and led us to use Stephen Cox instead losing the Agency as a result.

From memory the Ratner and Milner locks are not interchangeable in their bolt fixings.

[unknown]

safeman

Cepasaccus wrote
Did I undestand this correct? “took over the Company” = Ratner? “purchase of safes” = Milner’s safes?

I didn’t answer the second question.

I have no idea from where the unfortunate order was placed but it would not have been Milner whose lock production was unmatched by the team of Boyce Brothers and Charles Aubin.

If Gary’s lock is from one of this batch then this dreadful casting and finishing might even suggest India.

It was a normal practice for some of the large safe-makers to have many safes ‘made out’ when having to fulfill large overseas orders but not as in Ratner’s case to improve their competitiveness. In Tann’s showpiece, the London Silver Vaults, many of the doors housing the Dealers showrooms were sub-contracted to Hobbs Hart which was a useful expedient to fulfill the installation date. London safe-makers appeared to have good relationships.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

I spoke to the fella I bought it from, but he had had the lock in storage for over 20 years and couldn’t remember where it had come from.
I cannot imagine this lock being made to replace a milner or ratner lock as a one off, due to the work involved, presumably moulds would need to be made for the bolt and case castings, as well as all the other fabrication work.

Gary Stephenson

oldlock wrote
I think it’s OK. Really late in the history of the company. I had a changeable lock with a casting that was very similar and just as rough too.

Do you have any pictures of that lock?

[unknown]

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
Do you have any pictures of that lock?

It’s a sectional enlargement of one of your photographs Gary.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

It was old lock saying he had seen a changeable lock with similar castings that I was asking after any possible pictures of.

Kent Tassell

Hi Gary

How many of these have you seen in your time

Gary Stephenson

That’s the only one like that I have ever seen y6

safeman

Gary Stephenson wrote
That’s the only one like that I have ever seen y6

Not all that dissimilar Gary, number on key bow looks authentic -1960’s approx. Refers to a door says seller on Ebay.(safecracker 33.) Lots of detailed close -ups.

[unknown]

Gary Stephenson

Cheers, that is one of my locks, from a bookroom door and I have seen a few of that type/design before.