Need Milner’s details

stephane

Hi guys. I am working on some Milners and Ratner, need years product of them so if some gentlemen can provide it’s….. beautiful
merci beaucoup
Milners GE124304
Milners AO 36
Ratner 29648
Ratner 31046

safeman

stephane wrote
Hi guys. I am working on some Milners and Ratner, need years product of them so if some gentlemen can provide it’s….. beautiful
merci beaucoup
Milners GE124304
Milners AO 36
Ratner 29648
Ratner 31046

Stephane,
As far as I know Milner never used the prefix letters GE and the 6 figure number suggests that this is the lock number dating between 1871 and 1877.
The AQ prefix date is 1931.
Ratner 29648 is 1914 and 31046 is 1916.
I could probably identify the quality of these safes from photographs showing the front of the safes and the back of the doors, particularly the edge of the door plate/s.

[unknown]

stephane

awesome safeman ! as usually you are the fastest.
the small milners serial # is not AQ but AO.
for the other suffix i have no knowledge for this history mistake but i am affirmative : that’s the original number stamped on the safe (the last #4 digit not clear on the photo because under the primer coat). same number is stamped (without the GE letters) on the back of the handle, on the back of the plate behind the handle and on the lock (photos attached) so very exciting to hear you on this point.
another question : the small milners looks really unusual. i noticed my baby Tann, the small Milners and the 2 Ratners have exactly the same body ?! there is no more 1mm size difference between them. drawers and room inside are same managed. i am almost sure that bodys came from the same manufacturer and after the different safe’s makers just made door, pivot and locks for.
on the baby Tann there is engraved on a steel plate inside “scotland” and another word i can not read. so can you confirm if a body safe maker factory was based in scotland ?

Garry Wilson

AO is 1929

safeman

[QUOTE/QUOTE]

Stephane, it might be that the Milner Strong Holdfast number is 12430 which would fit in with the period when Milner used the Hobbs Protector lock (as fitted) incorporating Milner’s Gunpowder-Proof Patent and which in turn was replaced by a lock of Milner’s own manufacture in 1879 when Hobbs Hart started making safes in competition. Your safe could likely have been made around or before 1870.
Regarding the Ratner and Milner similarity this is not unusual. The smallest Ratner was 26” high and the smallest Milner about an inch shorter. Ratner’s were made in London and Milner’s in Liverpool and there is a connection in that D R Ratcliff who ran Milners left them to form his own safe company around 1890 called first Ratcliff & Horner the names which were to merge into Ratner shortly after. As you say there are distinctive differences in outward appearance, handles, pivots, etc. but it it quite improbable that the bodies were common.
There is no Scottish connection between either company. The internal plate may be an agents or re-sellers badge. I would still like to see the inside of these safes if possible to identify the grade. Outwardly they both appear to be List 2 fire-resistant quality but look stronger because of their compact size..

stephane

Thanks Garry for details. safeman, all the compact same body safes are not fireproof. they weight 160kgs each so really strong for the size/age. the baby Tann do not have same finish inside so it is possible to see, a reinforcement steel bar with an incomplete engraving “RKSHIRE STEEL Co LtD SCOTLAND” probably some letters in front “RKSHIRE” has been cut. anyway drawers are interchangeable between them and just the locks of drawers are from respective manufacturers. if the body maker was not in scotland sure he was the provider of the steel for an unique maker.

safeman

stephane wrote
Thanks Garry for details. safeman, all the compact same body safes are not fireproof. they weight 160kgs each so really strong for the size/age. the baby Tann do not have same finish inside so it is possible to see, a reinforcement steel bar with an incomplete engraving “RKSHIRE STEEL Co LtD SCOTLAND” probably some letters in front “RKSHIRE” has been cut. anyway drawers are interchangeable between them and just the locks of drawers are from respective manufacturers. if the body maker was not in scotland sure he was the provider of the steel for an unique maker.

Stephane, the full name embossed on the plate will be :

The Milner AO36 is still puzzling me because of the apparent thickness of the door edge which looks too thick for a List 2 which would only be about ¾"(0.75). This could be a photographic illusion of course. The only alternative is the Milner British Army Safe with a door edge about an inch thick and in only one size - 22 inches high.
Could you tell me the thickness of the outer body which will show on the back where the rear plate has been set in. (4.76, 6.35, or 9.5)

[unknown]

stephane

You seem to found the provider of steel plate !
the milners AO is 56cms high (22inch), 40.5 depth (16in), 38 large (15in)
the door tickness 2.2cms(0.7inch)
impossible to measure the body tickness except for the side panel by difference inside/outside so 1.1cms (0.40in) for one side
do you found a potential manufacturer for all this bodys ? Other small safes are exactely same measure.

safeman

stephane wrote
You seem to found the provider of steel plate !
the milners AO is 56cms high (22inch), 40.5 depth (16in), 38 large (15in)
the door tickness 2.2cms(0.7inch)
impossible to measure the body tickness except for the side panel by difference inside/outside so 1.1cms (0.40in) for one side
do you found a potential manufacturer for all this bodys ? Other small safes are exactely same measure.

It now looks fairly certain that this 1931 Milner is a British Army Safe which has the same measurements and the ⅞“ door. The outer body shpuld be ⅜” thick.
The weight is given as 144 kgs.
It will not be the case that safe bodies were made by the same manufacturer. The similarity is based on the normal British sizes and proportions which in turn are dependent on the interior height being adequate for standard ledger book sizes with or without shelves or partitions.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Must admit the dimension given possibly led off course as 2.2 cm door thickness is 0.86”, not 0.7” so it is the thicker door plate making everything match up to the heavier army pattern. They are lovely safes btw, the thicker construction and compact size gives them a chunky appearance. Well done again safeman, very informative posts.

stephane

Beautiful. Thanks for details.