forgotten tann's from WWI in france.

stephane

hi guys. unexpected small tann’s found here from a old lady. very sensual proportion and damn very well made for the size. not fireproof and curious inside agencement with lost space under the drawer because hollow stand. the story claim by the lady : this safe arrived during the WWI with an english marine officier at le Havre. beautiful hand paint on the back but not sure of signification. of course all details are welcome. i am plan the remplacement of my nightstand by this beauty !
thanks in advance

Huw Eastwood

Stephane well done yet another beauty in original condition! what a lovely ‘baby’ Tann, it will be interesting to see what background history unfolds on this one from the safe and lock numbers.

safeman

stephane wrote
hi guys. unexpected small tann’s found here from a old lady. very sensual proportion and damn very well made for the size. not fireproof and curious inside agencement with lost space under the drawer because hollow stand. the story claim by the lady : this safe arrived during the WWI with an english marine officier at le Havre. beautiful hand paint on the back but not sure of signification. of course all details are welcome. i am plan the remplacement of my nightstand by this beauty !
thanks in advance

Hello again Stephane, you come up with the most interesting old safes.

This one was made by the company of Robert Tann who was the nephew of John Tann the more famous safe maker. In the hope that he could benefit from the name he called his safes ‘Defiance’ being similar enough to John Tann’s names ‘Reliance’. Unlike J.Tann he did not hold any Patents for either locks or safes.

Robert died in 1899 and in 1913 the name changed to R.Tann Defiance Safe & Lock co.Ltd. shortly after which the goodwill was sold to John Tann for £235 (1917).

As they worked from a railway arch in London Fields Hackney with only a few employees it is hardly probable that they could form 12 corner bent bodied safes of this thickness. (see the heavily radiussed corners). It might even be conceivable that they subcontracted these to their near neighbour John Tann.

This however was not a one-off as seen on these attachments. Don’t take the American values as being anywhere near reality.

[unknown]

stephane

Thanks guys. i will remove the lock to clean it. any idea on the W 300 with the arrow paint on the back ? after cleaning outside there is a blue line ( 5cms large) continuous on each side and the top of the safe ? something related with a military or navy history ? and the number paint on the top front ? is it because lot of safes was on the same place or this is something usual for this period ?

safeman

stephane wrote
Thanks guys. i will remove the lock to clean it. any idea on the W 300 with the arrow paint on the back ? after cleaning outside there is a blue line ( 5cms large) continuous on each side and the top of the safe ? something related with a military or navy history ? and the number paint on the top front ? is it because lot of safes was on the same place or this is something usual for this period ?

Stephane,

What you refer to will most likely be the weight at 3 cwts although if the safe is 20 inches high or more I would think the weight is more like 4 cwts.
These details will merely be regarding the transport of the safe to France. The number on top front probably is an identification for the same purpose. Nothing concerning the actual safe as such.

[unknown]

stephane

thanks safeman for all very good infos.

chrisryan

Ive got one of these Tann Defiance Safes to open but surprisingly it has a double bitted key lock - any ideas on what the lock may be ? Best regards, Chris

stephane

chrisryan wrote
Ive got one of these Tann Defiance Safes to open but surprisingly it has a double bitted key lock - any ideas on what the lock may be ? Best regards, Chris

this is not a double bitted lock. As on a milner’s you retry the key on the opposite side when you lock/unlock

hope that help

[unknown]

safeman

chrisryan wrote
Ive got one of these Tann Defiance Safes to open but surprisingly it has a double bitted key lock - any ideas on what the lock may be ? Best regards, Chris

This photograph will give an indication what the boltwork looks like. R.Tann claims to have used only his own locks but no information available. A hard plate appears to protect the tail strap a well as the lock.

These keys are not necessarily related to the safe pictured.

[unknown]

chrisryan

Thanks for the replies, very much appreciated, and all information, ideas, and pictures always useful. Judging from the picture of the keyhole though, I can’t quite follow the logic of putting the key in one way up to lock, and then the other way up to unlock as in a Milner’s winged keyway - if anyone has any pictures of the lock that they think that this may be - please post. Best regards & many thanks, Chris

stephane

chrisryan wrote
Thanks for the replies, very much appreciated, and all information, ideas, and pictures always useful. Judging from the picture of the keyhole though, I can’t quite follow the logic of putting the key in one way up to lock, and then the other way up to unlock as in a Milner’s winged keyway - if anyone has any pictures of the lock that they think that this may be - please post. Best regards & many thanks, Chris

Chris, if you can wait 15 days i will send you photos of the lock.

[unknown]

safeman

chrisryan wrote
T Judging from the picture of the keyhole though, I can’t quite follow the logic of putting the key in one way up to lock, and then the other way up to unlock as in a Milner’s winged keyway -.

chrisryan, the principal of this procedure is based on Milners Patent Gunpowder proof lock the main feature of which is to reduce all the space inside the lock into which the explosive charge could be packed.
The best way of preventing this is the cast iron block. However, if the locking procedure still involves the key turning a complete revolution this would leave another void. A key retaining lock would prevent this as does the Milner, Ratner principal.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

A close look into the lock through the keyhole will answer the question you are asking, and will ascertain whatever type of lock is fitted- double bitted, single bitted, with or without bolt thrower, curtain, powder proof etc, and, if there’s still any uncertainty as to up-shoot or down shoot, a tension tool in the lock will confirm any doubts you might have, although as safemans boltwork pic confirms it has to be up-shoot in such limited space.

chrisryan

Huw Eastwood wrote
A close look into the lock through the keyhole will answer the question you are asking, and will ascertain whatever type of lock is fitted- double bitted, single bitted, with or without bolt thrower, curtain, powder proof etc, and, if there’s still any uncertainty as to up-shoot or down shoot, a tension tool in the lock will confirm any doubts you might have, although as safemans boltwork pic confirms it has to be up-shoot in such limited space.

Thanks Guys, all very true !! The pictures were sent to me by the customer and I haven’t been to site yet - just like to do my homework - Best regards, Chris

[unknown]

chrisryan

stephane wrote
Chris, if you can wait 15 days i will send you photos of the lock.

Thanks Stephane,

I would be very interested to see any photos of the lock (particularly the inside) that you may have.

Best regards, Chris

[unknown]

stephane

as promised Chris some photos of the lock remove of the safe. attached some size. only turn of an half on the RIGHT. down unlocked and up locked obviously. 8 levers not hard to pick in my opinion but i am not an expert. anyway if i have this model locked i will take time to open properly. this compact human size are the most desirable, easy to integrate in any interiors. hope that help. for any measure don’t hesitate.

chrisryan

Thanks Stephane,

That’s perfect !!!

Really appreciate you taking the time to post the pictures - very interesting - and the first time I have come across this particular lock.

Best regards, Chris

safeman

stephane wrote
as promised Chris some photos of the lock remove of the safe. attached some size. only turn of an half on the RIGHT. down unlocked and up locked obviously. 8 levers not hard to pick in my opinion but i am not an expert. anyway if i have this model locked i will take time to open properly. this compact human size are the most desirable, easy to integrate in any interiors. hope that help. for any measure don’t hesitate.

Hello Stephane, Your photographs of the Defiance lock are of great interest to me as well as Chris as I have never seen one before.

Please don’t be offended if I am being too critical but this lock is in a dreadful state. It certainly looks as if it’s been through the wars! The Ordnance Officer in Havre must have been an expert with a file and appears to have ‘adjusted’ the gates on some levers to make the lock work more smoothly. It’s surprising that the very weakly positioned and vulnerable first step of the key didn’t break off at the time. Defiance were probably too small a lockmaker to work from ‘Differs’ tables.

I too appreciate seeing the pictures. Great looking wee safe !

[unknown]

stephane

absolutely no offense Safeman. as you know i am not focused on the real security side and i am very happy with this safe, work smoothly. i do not think this non expert filler labour change the course of the war but i prefer to speak english today with you rather german. therefore i give a tribute to the ordonnance officier.