Yale & Towne K 31 1/2 Time Lock Question

poolmandoug

Hi,
I am a new member restoring my first safe. I have a Manganese Safe Company safe with two Yale & Towne K 31 ½ time locks. Number 889 with time piece 17.534 and 17.535 and number 892 with time piece 17.550 and 17.551.

The first lock has a short arm and was easy to get out of the inner door and I was able to see the screw inside the lock to get the arm off. However, the second lock has a long arm. Because of the length of the arm the lock will not come out of the door. I cannot see the screw that holds this arm in place and therefore cannot remove the lock from the door.

I think I need to get in to the lock itself to get the arm disconnected but I cannot figure out how to get the two main body pieces of the lock apart. Can anyone please advise me how to get the arm disconnect and how to get the two pieces of the lock body apart?

I will post pictures of the locks. Thank you very much for your time!

Doug

Doug MacQueen

Are you familiar with the Yale LOBC concept? This is where the combination must be known and dialed to a certain indexing mark on the dial ring. This then allows the back cover to be slid a very short distance and removed. So the next question should have been the first. Do you have a working combination? At this point it may not matter given that you have torn down the safe door and would have to completely reassemble to dial the combination. Your locks back cover is in fact the time lock mounting case.

Doug MacQueen

Hopefully this patent comes through. Pat. 677363

us677363-hre-2-m-tl-and-comb.pdf

277kB

Doug MacQueen

This patent is not exactly the same as your lock, but is essentially the same. If you read it all the way through and don’t get it, I will try to help you. Short of reassembly, drilling a small hole to align the wheels will be necessary.

poolmandoug

Thank you for your response Doug. This safe came out of a bank when it was torn down in southern Indiana many years ago. While in storage, a juvenile delinquent broke in and beat the Yale dials to death with a hammer. He also bent the side of the time case that is still in the door. The dials could not be turned and I had to remove them. I need to find two replacements if they are available to buy from someone.

I was on the right track thinking that the combination would have to be worked to get the two pieces apart. I had removed the lug at the bottom of the time mech box (N in the drawing) and it allows the time box to side down about an ⅛ of an inch. Not enough to line up the notches to open. I found a 76 year old 3rd generation family locksmith who for the love of antique safes has helped me. He put a scope through the arm slot opening and we could see the tumblers. There are four tumblers and a gear drive. Using a screwdriver as the shaft, he lined up the tumblers and when the gear drive rotated into position it pulled the fence in and rotated the bracket the holds the arm in to a new position. It seemed to us that the combination had been worked. However, the time case does not move any further than before!

I am still missing something.

Looking at Fig 3 of the patent drawing I see that a post (M) should be able to move in to a slot in the tumblers when they are lined up that would allow the time case to move. This is on the opposite side of my tumblers and I cannot see it. I have a new scope on order and it will be here Monday. Now that I have these drawings I will try to look more in this area. I may have to drill in to the top area of the time case to see it.

Any new thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I haven’t ask him to do it yet but my locksmith is confident he can mark the position of each tumbler and get a working combination for the lock.

Thank you,
Doug

Doug MacQueen

I will look at the patent again today. If you still have the dial rings, usually there will be an additional index mark showing where the wheels have to lined up to remove the cover. It is never at the opening index. Most covers slide toward the lock bolt end of the case., and that means aligning the wheel gates directly opposite the bolt end.

poolmandoug

I do have the ring dials at my office. I will be able to look at them tomorrow.

Thank you!

poolmandoug

Doug,

I put one dial back into place on the safe and took pictures of it. There is a notch and a circle at the top of the outer ring but interestedly there is another notch on the outer ring at about 5 o’clock or at the 38 on the dial. Both outer rings have this notch in the same place.

Could this be an indicator relevant to separating the time case and the combination case?

Thanks,
Doug

Doug MacQueen

Yes and that shows the angular difference between where the wheels are aligned for opening the lock and the wheels are aligned for removing the time lock cover. It would be easy if everything was back together as you just dial to that mark, but I think you will get it apart anyway.

poolmandoug

I marked the position of the dial in the open position ( which nicely works out is square to the top) and marked the other position at 38 points to the right. It did not free up the top. I tried to get it loose by testing it through a complete rotation but no luck.

I did get my new scope in today and can see what is happening to the tumblers. The open position is a dead stop to the left for the dial and it can only rotate back to the right. At the point of the notch at 38 is when the top tumbler begins to rotate out of the open position and relock the safe.

I really do appreciate your time and thoughts. I am going to keep playing with it and see if anything works.

Thanks,
Doug

Doug MacQueen

The dead stop position of the dial has nothing to do with the relationship of the LOBC index and the opening index. It is the angular difference of the two index marks that is important. Also make sure that any connection arms or brackets from the time lock into the comb lock are removed. There has to be something that connects the two as it is the timelock that allows the comb lock to function after the timelock winds down.

Doug MacQueen

If you look at Fig 5 drawing on the patent, the small “e” is the location the wheel gates must align to. And I would position the drive wheel gate to that location as well. You could drill through the backside of the combination lock in between the spindle hole and the staked on wheel post. Just make sure not to drill too close to the wheels so you don’t remove any gear teeth.

poolmandoug

Doug,

I finally got it! Using my new scope I was able to watch the tumblers and map out what the dial number should have been for each correct tumbler position. I was able to come up with the correct combination. My secondary mark is 38 points to the right. In my inexperience I thought I only had to move the gear drive back to that position. It finally dawned on me that you were telling me to move every tumbler 38 points.

Sorry I was so slow to catch that. No holes drilled! I am so excited. It had become a war between me and that lock. Thank you so much for your patience and guidance.

You are a great asset to your organization.

Now it’s on to the other lock. Unfortunately, I cannot see the tumblers at all in that one. May have to drill a hole to see them. Cannot get the lock out of the door either because the arm is too long to let it come out. Ready for the next task.

Thanks again,
Doug