F Whitfield "The City Safe"

Steve48 · 2018-03-19T11:39:56+00:00

A while ago I finally tracked down a safe I was interested in. Not that I am a collector, more an engineer and restorer with a passion for older equipment that was made rather nicely. In this case a safe was on my list for myself. It appears to be a very rare survivor, probably from 1890 or there abouts, as it is a banded safe, but the bands are dovetailed and closed by riveting, rather than later versions where the banding was preformed or pressed. It is my intention to restore this safe to its original condition, not like so many with the emblem of a bottle of scotch or some such. Fortunately enough of the paint remains to be able to achieve this. I am getting close now to the point where most mechanical work is complete, bar the bolt work which needs a clean up. So I thought I would add some photos that might interest people here. I have already made a key for the drawer which like so many had gone missing in the distant past, not that it was easy as they riveted the lock in place which created issues. First a couple of photos of the beastie: Although not viewable there is enough paint and pinstripes left to recreate the original finish. Internal of door, eight throw bolts. The transfer I have photo’d and restored is currently being recreated as a transparency. Just a view of the internal space. So the main lock and a key to suit, well a paper label states new keys were made in 1995, however they were obviously off the shelf and too slim, so not an ideal fit, and also they were not of a quality I found suitable either. More to follow, this is my first post, so lets see if it works.

safeman

Steve48 wrote
I am very open to ideas. But of course the chances of anyone in this modern world wanting to cut this open with oxy-acetylene is about nil I would have thought.

Any comments gratefully received, Steve.

Steve, This safe when it was made was dual purpose. Much of the body strength was to prevent the safe bursting open in a fire where it could suffer a serious fall and the weight of much rubble falling upon it.
The fire-resisting composition using a chemical to create sufficient moisture to dampen the paperwork inside was patented by Thos.Milner in 1840 and has never been bettered.
The theft-resistance was excellent against the tools of the time - belly brace with hand made spade drills, the ratchet drill, and the very effective wedge and lever attack to spring the door.
Incidentally, in 1865 a method of resisting wedge attack was invented by a Manchester policeman and consisted of metal blocks riveted to the back of the door with corresponding rebates in the door frame. This was patented by Milner but never pursued and was taken up by Whitfield. This puts your safe as pre-1865.
The 4-way boltwork would prevent any attempt at forcing the door
It is not known of any safes being illegally opened by lock picking during this period.
Your safe body plates will be vulnerable to the modern disc-cutter but unlikely to justify the use of oxy-fuel cutter.
An excellent safe for the period.

[unknown]

Chubby

How many criminals ever open a safe by picking the lock?

Steve48

safeman wrote
Steve, This safe when it was made was dual purpose. Much of the body strength was to prevent the safe bursting open in a fire where it could suffer a serious fall and the weight of much rubble falling upon it.
The fire-resisting composition using a chemical to create sufficient moisture to dampen the paperwork inside was patented by Thos.Milner in 1840 and has never been bettered.
The theft-resistance was excellent against the tools of the time - belly brace with hand made spade drills, the ratchet drill, and the very effective wedge and lever attack to spring the door.
Incidentally, in 1865 a method of resisting wedge attack was invented by a Manchester policeman and consisted of metal blocks riveted to the back of the door with corresponding rebates in the door frame. This was patented by Milner but never pursued and was taken up by Whitfield. This puts your safe as pre-1865.
The 4-way boltwork would prevent any attempt at forcing the door
It is not known of any safes being illegally opened by lock picking during this period.
Your safe body plates will be vulnerable to the modern disc-cutter but unlikely to justify the use of oxy-fuel cutter.
An excellent safe for the period.

Thank you for your thoughts and comments, I can see we agree on a few things. I have seen a few Milners with the dovetail sections preventing spreading of the case. Although this doesn’t have those I think it would have to be split open a long way to get the door open due to the centre vertical throw bolts.

But there is a problem with your dating, if you look back a page or two I left a photo of the inner transfer, this is clearly original to both the paint and the door. Yet their claims for Prize Medals are very clearly dated, the last one being 1885, therefore this safe must postdate that year or at least be concurrent with the time of their printing. !!!!!

However one of the things that has made me wonder is the dovetail construction of the banding, I would have thought by this time that formed bands would have been available. So between the two things there is a degree of possible error.

The only other possibility would be the safe being returned to Whitfield’s, maybe a trade in, or an overhaul and in so doing it got the current sticker stuck on the inside, who can say. It would therefore allow the safe to be far older than previously thought. thus could then agree with your dating………….can of worms isn’t it.

Thank you for the information on the fire resisting composition, nice to know these things.

Ah yes being a metal worker (rtrd), I know full well I could get into this safe in a variety of ways, but all of them being totally destructive and I guess this is why insurance companies don’t like them. However insurance companies always find a reason not to pay up don’t they or try damned hard not to.

In truth the best safe is one they cannot find. Because they will all fail given time and perseverance.
Cheers, Steve

[unknown]

Chubby

To anybody who knows what he is doing, those old safes present no difficulty to opening.

safeman

Steve48 wrote
Thank you for your thoughts and comments, I can see we agree on a few things. I have seen a few Milners with the dovetail sections preventing spreading of the case. Although this doesn’t have those I think it would have to be split open a long way to get the door open due to the centre vertical throw bolts.

A possible explanation for my error in dating due to the anti-wedging blocks could be that they were not considered necessary having 4-way boltwork.

However something still bothers me. The original photograph strikes me as being of one of the very earliest Whitfield safes, particularly the carriages and centres. Most of the later Whitfields I’ve seen have identical carriages to Milners. Whether they were supplied by Milners or just used the same supplier I don’t know.
Incidentally they were bought by Milners just after the last war.

More trivia and lock stuff.

[unknown]

Steve48

Hi Safeman,

“Quote”:– However something still bothers me. The original photograph strikes me as being of one of the very earliest Whitfield safes, particularly the carriages and centres. Most of the later Whitfield’s I’ve seen have identical carriages to Milners. Whether they were supplied by Milners or just used the same supplier I don’t know. Incidentally they were bought by Milners just after the last war.""

I can only agree with your thoughts. I have restored a great many things from the nineteenth century and the look of this safe together with its early form of construction all appear earlier than the dates given on that sticker. I will be having a close look at that soon, and maybe there is something underneath it.

I do not know your terminology, could you please enlighten me to “Carriages and Centres”.

Thanks again for your thoughts, it is only by sharing in this manner that we learn. Steve.

safeman

Steve48 wrote
Hi Safeman

I do not know your terminology, could you please enlighten me to “Carriages and Centres”.

Steve,
Carriages and Centres are the works terms for the door pivot mechanism, the carriage being attached to the body and the centre to the door. Milner are more or less alone in using ‘hinges’ which have much greater security strength of attachment but don’t allow for easy removal of a door when having to lighten a safe to comply with a ‘safe loading’ limit. The Carriage is also referred to as ‘The Lump’ when giving dimensions i.e. depth 24” including handles and lump.
Most of the cheaper Victorian safes have the carriage as a built up extension of the top and bottom body plate which can be easily hammered clear of the pivot pin on the centre allowing the door to be removed backwards.

[unknown]

Steve48

safeman wrote
Steve48 wrote
Hi Safeman

I do not know your terminology, could you please enlighten me to “Carriages and Centres”.

Steve,
Carriages and Centres are the works terms for the door pivot mechanism, the carriage being attached to the body and the centre to the door. Milner are more or less alone in using ‘hinges’ which have much greater security strength of attachment but don’t allow for easy removal of a door when having to lighten a safe to comply with a ‘safe loading’ limit. The Carriage is also referred to as ‘The Lump’ when giving dimensions i.e. depth 24” including handles and lump.
Most of the cheaper Victorian safes have the carriage as a built up extension of the top and bottom body plate which can be easily hammered clear of the pivot pin on the centre allowing the door to be removed backwards.

I see, and your photo does show a serious vulnerability. I had good reason to examine this particular safe as my ideal would have been to remove the door for complete restoration. It is however impossible without incurring serious realignment issues later. Or should I say shooting ones self in the foot.

Basically the carriage blocks are in a way similar to carpentry, each block is made up of two layers, taking the top one, the bottom layer is halved into the top strap, and its upper layer must be riveted to the that bottom layer, therefore attacking it would only serve to bend it down and jamming all together, this would make entry more or less impossible.

The centre, was dowelled to the door in at least two places and finally riveted in place with two seriously large rivets. All of which are just visible after removing the paint.

Due to this state of affairs I have been feeding it with oil off an on for a while now as I doubt it has been lubricated in a century.

Looking at these hinges or whatever we call them, they are seriously robust. The size of this safe minus its handles is 18&⅝″ wide by 19&¾ deep and 24&¼ tall, all imperial inches.

Thank you for the info, Steve

[unknown] [unknown]

stephane

milners look i find. a beauty. felicitations !

Chubby

Steve, I am not exactly sure what you mean when you talk about construction of the carriages and jamming the door with them. An attack on the “hinges” will not get you into a safe. The door is held secure by dog bolts.

I wish I had $100 for every safe I have seen which has been attacked in this way. With an old one it usually means that they are scrapped.

Steve48

Chubby, to understand my point about bending hinges etc you need to read Safeman’s earlier comment. Which was what I was replying to.

I have now stripped the bolt work door and the cartridge that contained the fire damping material. There was nothing under the sticker bar the original paint, so no new clues to its age other than the dates on the sticker.

Of course there is no reason why this safe could not have been in store for a number of years prior to being sold and on that date it got a lick of paint and a fresh sticker.

So date wise we are stuck with what we have, and theories that contradict it, who can say.

Steve.

Huw Eastwood

I’m late to the party on this one so welcome Steve and beautiful work on making that key. Please show us all the in-between stages, my techniques for making them seem quite different so I’m intrigued to see how you did yours.

The safes a beauty btw, can’t remember ever seeing a Whitfield with 4 way boltwork.

Steve48

Huw Eastwood wrote
I’m late to the party on this one so welcome Steve and beautiful work on making that key. Please show us all the in-between stages, my techniques for making them seem quite different so I’m intrigued to see how you did yours.

The safes a beauty btw, can’t remember ever seeing a Whitfield with 4 way boltwork.

Hi Huw, sorry to say I didn’t take photos of the various stages. It didn’t occur to me that anyone would be that interested. I have made a lot of keys over the years and a few locks too. I could write up a brief outline if you want, would need to be thought out or it would take up pages rather than lines. Let me know.

I finally got the lock box, the damping chamber and the bolt work all stripped down, cleaned up and rust proofed today, nice not be up to my ears in muck after this point. The engagement bolts have all been on the buffing wheel so they will look a bit more presentable in future. Rather amused me that they painted it all inside with tar, but my paint stripper sorted that easily.

I can only but agree regarding the safe, its special, I looked around for a long time to find one that appealed, this just presented itself one day. Nice to find one with a complex bolt work and even nicer that it hadn’t been abused or painted over oh and not too big either. I am a great fan of the Chatwood diamond safes, but they seem only to come in the large economy size.

Steve

[unknown]

Warren63

Hi all, has anyone got any idea what this Cotterill part is from? It says Edwin Cotterill patent paragon spring I think.

Chubby

Looks to me like part of a door closer.

Steve48

I got laid low by a virus, but managed with a sunny day to strip off all the paint and rust, ready for some treatment……
Oh its upside down right now as I intend to paint the bottom and back in this position first.

Front

Back

Bottom

One side

Minus the lock box, the internals I stripped out with paint stripper, the outside with a power tool.
Nearly finished the lock box, when ready I will include a shot or two of that.

00247

Nice to see I’m not the only fool restoring old safes. It is always a daunting time once they are in their naked glory and now the reconstruction work begins. Keep posting pictures of your progress.

Steve48

00247 wrote
Nice to see I’m not the only fool restoring old safes. It is always a daunting time once they are in their naked glory and now the reconstruction work begins. Keep posting pictures of your progress.

Although I am perhaps the last person to be politically correct, I think in England we tend to think of those following a different path as eccentrics. I will indeed keep posting, until the end - well hopefully so.
I actually wanted a safe, for good reasons, but it had to be one that was a little bit special, and I am confident this “City Safe” is definitely of that class. No one else seems to have seen its like, and nothing on the internet covers it either.
But eccentric of whatever, there is a lot of satisfaction in bringing something back to its former glory and use, and from what I have seen many of these old safes are sought after these days irrespective of insurance companies condemning them.

[unknown]

safeman

Steve, I hope that you are now well on the road to recovery.

Purely for interests sake I am attaching a picture of what appears to be a heavier bodied version of a Whitfield of a similar age.

I regret that I have no further information than this and I cannot even remember from where I copied it. From the tenon joints it appears to have body plates about ½ inch thick.

Steve48

safeman wrote
Steve, I hope that you are now well on the road to recovery.

Purely for interests sake I am attaching a picture of what appears to be a heavier bodied version of a Whitfield of a similar age.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19860[/ATTACH] I regret that I have no further information than this and I cannot even remember from where I copied it. From the tenon joints it appears to have body plates about ½ inch thick.

That is certainly different and heavier, mine is without doubt boiler plate on the outer skin and about five sixteenths of an inch thick, but with heavier framing that does appear to be wrought iron. Oh and a whole bevy of rivets. I still find this type of construction to be out of keeping perhaps with 1885 it simply strikes me as an earlier form of construction based on so many things I have worked on and seen over the years.
Thanks for posting your photo though, all these things help to build a picture. I suppose too that even if there were advances in technology not all companies were up to date in their methods or able to achieve them due to financial constraints.
Steve.

[unknown]

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