John Tann Reliance Safe - Opening procedure / tips, tricks and information

Pseudoscope

Hi All

I’m recently acquired a John Tann Reliance safe (QLD, Australia) along with it’s keys(?). The problem is the people who I got the safe off can’t remember the last time it was opened and the safe has been partially flooded so things are a little seized up.

I’ve attached some images, I received 2 different keys, The one that fits the safe is marked “J Tann, Patent” on one side and “reliance lock” on the other, the other (with the ribbon attached) has John Tann Ltd London stamped on the key and I assume is for something internal.

The safe has 2 key holes, one with a post (no. 1) (that I don’t have a key that fits) and one without (no. 2) . The one without, no.2 is located on the bottom and initially the key wouldn’t fit, but after inspecting with an inspection camera and aligning the tumbler(?) the key now goes in and turns anticlockwise just over half a turn. With no resistance or indication that any is happening inside the lock, with resistance much like a combination lock

My question is, how do I open this safe? Is it only one key to open it? Which way should the key turn, how much? After getting the key to the right position which way do I turn the handle and how much? (it currently doesn’t turn)

What methods would you go through trying to troubleshoot the safe?

Regards,
Pseudo

safeman

Can give you some information - no tricks but one tip.

This is a rare example of the Tann List 2 quality dating from the late 1870’s period. If I’m correct it will have a ½" door and an 8g body. The Reliance Locks fitted will probably not be of Bankers Quality but may have protection against picking by means of a ‘guarded lever’ and detector.

From the keys illustrated the ‘guarded lever’ does not appear to be present in the lower lock as the bit has not been cut to pass a guard but only to pass a ward. I assume that your expression ‘post’ implies ‘drill pin’ as for a pipe key.

The first points to establish are whether or not the locks are actually locked and secondly, if not, is the boltwork actually engaged or the door merely jammed shut. This would require some locksmithing and safe technician skills.

As you have only been given one set of keys might imply that the top lock is open. From your description of the movement of the lower key it might be that it is not fully turning to the unlocked position due to broken springs or just inactivity. Worth trying to overcome this by very gently tapping on the bow of the key as you turn it up and back again repeatedly to hopefully release a stuck lever.

This mechanism depicts what I believe to be a higher grade of safe than yours but it will give you some idea of the general layout. Yours may not have two-way boltwork so the direction of the handle movement is uncertain.

Chubby

I shall probably be ritually tarred and feathered for suggesting this. If the lock is a bit sticky through dirt, rust etc. a blast of WD40 might help.

Pseudoscope

First up, Safeman thanks for the info and advice, it is indeed a Tann List 2.

And Chubby, I had been feeding the safe inox for a few weekends, and now that the safe is open, there is no amount of wd40, inox or other magical fluid that could bring it back to life.

I decided to stop wasting time and get into the safe. My method of attack was to remove the back by drilling out the bolt-rivet hybrids, cut into the back and go from there. Once inside it was evident the safe needs a complete rebuild. As such I cut out the inner compartments on the way to the door. Then unbolted the door and swung the ½ plate off the front.

Once into there I saw that the top lock was locked and the bottom lock was open. After removing the locks I tried to move the locking bolts… They needed a few love taps with a hammer. Long story short, there was no way this was getting opened without disassembly. Either through the back like I did. Or by removing the ½ plate around the locks. removing the locks and then coercing it open. Both locks were completely seized up.

For those interested the correct method to open the safe is clockwise on all components (see attached image).

The safe was in poor condition, but I will be rebuilding it (not sure if 100% original or somewhat custom). If anyone has any requests for pictures/details let me know.

Also the safe was numbered 12451 - If anyone could tell me more by this I’d appreciate the info.

Regards,
Pseudo

Chubby

There is little point trying to restore it as original. It has no collectors’ value. So you would be better using modern parts where necessary.

Were I doing it I would retain the one original keylock. If the customer wanted dual control I would recommend either a digital (yuck) or manual combination for the second lock.

If it is set up as 1 pin and one pipe lock it is probably originally a dual control. Check, though, that there are hardened plates over both locks. If either hasn’t got a hardened plate, now is your chance to add one. If you are mounting a new lock it won’t fit the boltwork, unless you are very lucky. Don’t try fitting the lock to match the boltwork. Simply alter the boltwork- it is dead simple. One thing I used to do was to bolt a piece on to act as the interference point. That way if ever you want to remove the dual control you simply remove the bolts and drop the link in the bottom of the lock pan so you can always reconnect it.

Add an AED attached to the top lock and routed via the bottom lock. A single dead aed should be OK on something that size. You could be smart and put a live one on, probably working from the keylock, but I always like a dead as well as a live one.

I assume the fire resisting lining was something like sawdust and alum. Again were I doing the job I would start by mounting a piece of conduit or similar between the 2 skins. Replace the inner skin of the back. Then lay the safe face down (With some solid straps under it) and simply fill between the 2 skins with concrete. Once that has set, and leave it a good long time, you have a concrete monolith and the safe has a base anchoring point via the conduit. You can replace the old back if you want to make a really good job of things. I probably would.

safeman

Later than I thought - 1885 more likely.

At least you’ve preserved the most vital parts.

safeman

Chubby wrote
There is little point trying to restore it as original. It has no collectors’ value. So you would be better using modern parts where necessary.

Were I doing it I would retain the one original keylock. If the customer wanted dual control I would recommend either a digital (yuck) or manual combination for the second lock.

If it is set up as 1 pin and one pipe lock it is probably originally a dual control. Check, though, that there are hardened plates over both locks. If either hasn’t got a hardened plate, now is your chance to add one. If you are mounting a new lock it won’t fit the boltwork, unless you are very lucky. Don’t try fitting the lock to match the boltwork. Simply alter the boltwork- it is dead simple. One thing I used to do was to bolt a piece on to act as the interference point. That way if ever you want to remove the dual control you simply remove the bolts and drop the link in the bottom of the lock pan so you can always reconnect it.

Add an AED attached to the top lock and routed via the bottom lock. A single dead aed should be OK on something that size. You could be smart and put a live one on, probably working from the keylock, but I always like a dead as well as a live one.

I assume the fire resisting lining was something like sawdust and alum. Again were I doing the job I would start by mounting a piece of conduit or similar between the 2 skins. Replace the inner skin of the back. Then lay the safe face down (With some solid straps under it) and simply fill between the 2 skins with concrete. Once that has set, and leave it a good long time, you have a concrete monolith and the safe has a base anchoring point via the conduit. You can replace the old back if you want to make a really good job of things. I probably would.

Gross vandalism Chubby. This is a very rare example of industrial archaeology and having been exported to Tann’s agent MacDonnell & Co.in 1885 might make it a desirable object for local preservation.

[unknown]

Chubby

OK. Then replace everything exactly as you found it. Get keys cut for the seized lock. Don’t repaint unless you can find an authentic match.

Find a museum and see if they are interested. After they have said no, you will have a very insecure safe worth less than the amount you have spent on it.

These things crop up throughout the colonies. They have no commercial value and wouldn’t even slow down a half competent burglar.

safeman

safeman wrote
Later than I thought - 1885 more likely.

At least you’ve preserved the most vital parts.

Correction, I’ve tied it down to June 1880. For what it’s worth this is the key from a similar age Tann
in Australia, and is of a pipe key as your top lock. The ‘L’ shape cut-out is to accommodate the Guarded
Lever.

Am very pleased to hear that you intend a restoration.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Chubby wrote
I shall probably be ritually tarred and feathered for suggesting this. If the lock is a bit sticky through dirt, rust etc. a blast of WD40 might help.

Why would you be ritually tarred and feathered for suggesting a quick blast of WD40?

When we knew you’d probably come out with something like this..

Chubby wrote
There is little point trying to restore it as original. It has no collectors’ value. So you would be better using modern parts where necessary.

Were I doing it I would retain the one original keylock. If the customer wanted dual control I would recommend either a digital (yuck) or manual combination for the second lock.

If it is set up as 1 pin and one pipe lock it is probably originally a dual control. Check, though, that there are hardened plates over both locks. If either hasn’t got a hardened plate, now is your chance to add one. If you are mounting a new lock it won’t fit the boltwork, unless you are very lucky. Don’t try fitting the lock to match the boltwork. Simply alter the boltwork- it is dead simple. One thing I used to do was to bolt a piece on to act as the interference point. That way if ever you want to remove the dual control you simply remove the bolts and drop the link in the bottom of the lock pan so you can always reconnect it.

Add an AED attached to the top lock and routed via the bottom lock. A single dead aed should be OK on something that size. You could be smart and put a live one on, probably working from the keylock, but I always like a dead as well as a live one.

I assume the fire resisting lining was something like sawdust and alum. Again were I doing the job I would start by mounting a piece of conduit or similar between the 2 skins. Replace the inner skin of the back. Then lay the safe face down (With some solid straps under it) and simply fill between the 2 skins with concrete. Once that has set, and leave it a good long time, you have a concrete monolith and the safe has a base anchoring point via the conduit. You can replace the old back if you want to make a really good job of things. I probably would.

+1 that’d be gross vandalism indeed, it wouldnt matter how many live or dead relockers, thermal links, deflectors or extra hardened plates you fitted to it, it’d still be an 1880s Tann- and from what safeman has kindly informed us, a pretty rare and important one at that.

+1 for hoping you restore it OP, anything as close to it was has got to be a double thumbs up from me, let us all know how it goes- you didn’t mention the level of damage sustained from opening so hopefully it’s not going to be a major setback. Good luck

[unknown] [unknown]

Chubby

I suppose it depends on what the owner wishes to achieve.

I would have thought that coming in through the back would have compromised what value it had as an historic item.

I was simply showing him how it could be made into a reasonably secure unit.