One cool Victor safe!

00247

Just ran across this Victor on Ebay, Sure is a nice one and with a cannonball door setup on the inside it has to be a unique model. Doug, it’s in your neck of the woods, maybe a road trip is in order. I love it! 🙁inlove):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Standing-Bank-Safe-Victor-Safe-and-Lock-/272447308873?hash=item3f6f200449:g:g-IAAOSwImRYJ14d

Huw Eastwood

Wow that is a nice one. It’s undoubtedly an impressive and beautiful safe and manufacturers did make bespoke units for sure, but not convinced the inner door makes it a unique one-off though.

Wasn’t the concept of a burglary resistant money safe or ‘chest’ housed within large fire safe routinely offered for top-of-the range protection until vaults became more widespread in the late 1890’s?

00247

Yes, Max, an inner vault in of itself was a common feature on higher end safes at that time. What makes this one unique is that Victor adapted the screw in door from their cannonball bank safe into the interior. I find it quite impressive to open the doors of this safe to find a nickle plated and engine turned door that requires you to crank open. These doors are quite impressive. Here is the one off my Victor cannonball.

Unfortunately, the seller does not have the combination for the inner door. I would love to see if it is the same as the cannonball door or if it is a variation that might be thinner. I also wonder if it has the Bankers Dustproof time lock on the inside. The lack of the combination is not an issue, it is very easy to defeat the day lock on this door unless the time lock is set… then it is a waste of time.

Doug MacQueen

Yes that safe is probably not unique but it is a rare animal. I don’t know if the picture of one I have seen is on the internet, but it was a larger fire safe with 4 cannonballs built inside. Pretty sure it was either a Victor or Mosler.

Huw Eastwood

Not sure how well this faint black and white image will reproduce here but it’s an equivalent double door offering from Mosler equipped with their screw-door chests inside.

000247, It seems logical that the big manufacturers would use derivatives of their stand-alone screw-door safes for these inner money chests, I don’t see how that aspect alone would qualify them to be unique - likewise there’s inevitably going to be both similarities and possible design differences between features of these secondary inner units and their stand-alone cannonball equivalents. They are undoubtedly impressive doors though and I love the way they cut those heavy ACME threads especially on the tapers.

00247

Thanks for that image, Max. That is quite the Mosler. I wish there was some information for it. Having two Mosler screw door safes, a single door and a double door, I have been gleaning as much info as I can on them. There seems to be variations on two basic designs. A larger frame starting about 1890 and a smaller frame later. By the positioning of the crank pinion gear above center on these doors, they appear to be the smaller version like this one that is from 1915 according to the Mosler serial number list.

I am currently finishing up a restoration of this safe and it has a very different way of being constructed which makes the image you posted very interesting to me. I wonder which of the two construction versions was used for it. I will have a thread on this in the somewhat near future.

The larger frame has the crank pinion gear at center like this one from 1891.

Back to the Victor… yes, I should have said rare vs unique. 🙁blush):

Doug MacQueen

Max, as I imagine you are aware that the early screw threading was bolted on and then later became an integral part. Again not sure if it was Mosler or Victor, but I found some patents that show the machinery for cutting the threads, or rather grinding them. What I am not sure of, is whether the castings included the raw threading. Either way it would have been a real challenge to get the close fit they ended up having.

00247

On the Victor, a 1908 patent was for the change to a one piece door from the previous two piece door that had the bolted on threads after it was successfully breached with explosives. Doug was kind enough to educate me on that a few years ago. That tidbit helped date my Victor cannonball as it is the earlier two piece design but it has a tag with the new 1908 patent listed. So far there have been 5-6 victors that have this anomaly of the new tag on the old design which suggests they were at the end of the early design.

The Moslers I have are a bolted together design. The doors do not wedge as tight as the Victor and I find that the overall quality, and more so the workmanship, does not compare to the Victor. At least in these models.

Huw Eastwood

Sorry no additional info to go with that double door Mosler, and sadly same for this Mosler screw door with crank pinion at 9 o’clock centre.

I’m probably wrong but under the impression the above pattern was the older, but I’m sure Doug or someone with brochures, patent dates etc will know for certain.

Doug, I vaguely recall seeing schematic drawings for the doors and bolt-on threads but have never seen anything to do with the machinery or process they used to make them. Would love a look at any pics you have to hand that you can post.

00247

Interesting comment, Doug, about grinding the threads. Do you have more info? The Victor threads were of very nice quality, the Moslers not so much. They show evidence of being turned. Chattering marks from the cutting bit, uneven steps with cutting marks suggest this.

The joint where the threads are bolted to the outer door is clear in the photo. I think all Mosler screw doors safes and early cannonballs were built this way. Not sure on the later cannonballs and I wouldn’t bet my life on any of it. The door jamb consists of the outer case, then the next two steps are a ring bolted to the case, then the threads are bolted to that ring. All done before the safe is assembled. These safes were much like a puzzle to assemble.

00247

Max, that image is also very interesting. That is the first smaller door version that I have seen with the crank at the 9 o’clock position. It is the smaller version as the time lock is more centrally located and by the design of the rear door cover plate. Also the hinge design, pivot cap, and pedestal shape confirm the smaller version. Goes to show there were a number of variations. What else you got?

Huw Eastwood

Unfortunately probably not that much else, but I’ll certainly post anything as and when I dig it out that’s relevant ref the Victor or Moslers.

Doug MacQueen

I am not at home today so I can’t post the grinding machinery. As far as I know the first use of cast manganese steel here in the US was by Hibbard Rodman Ely at the turn of the century. During the 1890’s there were numerous round door square body chests, including Mosler and Victors, and these were laminated construction, not cast manganese steel. There was great difficulty using cutting tools on the new steel so grinding was used. Inspection of the bolt holes on the HRE show where a machinable metal was melted into the bolt hole areas, and then machined for the rectangular bolts.

Doug MacQueen

Victor grinding machine

Doug MacQueen

Note this machine is for the later coarse thread version where the door threads are not bolted onto the door.

00247

Thank you for that, Doug. With that patent number I did a search and sure enough it is here:

http://www.google.com.na/patents/US998508

Also has the full written description for those who may want to know more. The drawings are very clear online but don’t have the authentic vintage look of yours.