New member, antique safe question

WBrianS

Hello from Memphis, Tn! I’m glad I found this site, and hopefully one of you can lend me some pointers.

The next town over from my house has a junkyard, and sitting on the front porch of the business is this safe. I asked the owner about it and was told that he purchased it from an estate sale back in the ’90’s, but on the way home he had the windows of his truck open and the combination (written on a slip of paper) flew out the window. He said he never even brought it inside as he lost interest immediately. It’s been sitting on his porch ever since and he’s trying to sell it as scrap metal.

The door is locked open, and the dial spins (there’s some resistance, so I assume the lock is working).
He wants $200 for it, as-is.

Am I right that with the door open, I can take off the plate covering the inside of the door and see the combination wheels line up as I spin the dial and thus get the combination?

I don’t need a safe, but I hate to see something that was once such a fine item (apparently made between 1924-1952) sold to be melted down. I’d like to restore it.

wylk

Yes, you should be able to determine the combination. Just looking at it, the lock does not seem to be original, it’s a much more modern replacement.

wylk

You might be able to get some answers/assistance from the company, which still exists! John Baumann Safe Company has a web site http://www.jbsafeco.com which states in part “John Baumann Safe Company has been serving the St. Louis area since 1843.”

I’d be curious to know if your safe was actually made by their company, or if they purchased safes from some other maker (e.g. Diebold or Mosler) and merely put their name on them. I’d also be curious to know if the original John Baumann was related to Fred Baumann (or Bahmann) who at one point partnered with Carl Diebold (around 1859 to maybe 1866). But the pessimist in me doubts if anybody at the current company knows their history to this level.

Arcade Al

Seems like a lot of money considering the condition, and the fact that scrap metal is worth almost nothing at the moment!

WBrianS

Thanks guys!
My wife was pretty set that I not purchase it as (1) we have no need for a safe and (2) she insists that there’s no way I could figure out the combination. She claims that if it’s such a neat thing then someone else would have purchased it at some point in the last 20 years.

In a week I’ll be in that town again and I’ll grab it, then post some pictures of the process of trying to work the combination out, for anyone who’s interested or just really bored.

00247

With the lock not being original I would take a closer look to see if it is even functional. I’m not sold on his “combination out the window” story. Before forking over $200 I would take the back of the door off and see that everything is there. Personally i wouldn’t pay that much. It is nothing unique, just an old safe in poor condition, The newer lock as well as the missing compartment door inside hurts the value as a collector piece if you intend to restore it.

Offer him $50 if he can load it for you. Tell him you talked to a locksmith and it will cost $100 to figure out the combination. Remind him half the weight is mortar inside the walls and door, salvage guys know that. He has looked into both and that is why it has set there for 20 years. If I had to load it myself it would drop to $25.

But that’s me. I love to haggle and play the game. You can always pay his price and buy it if you don’t piss him off to much. If you do, go on Craigslist and you will find one in better shape. In fact, run a wanted ad on there for an old safe and you will get responses.

There are worse things to spend $200 on. A prostitute, the casino, crack cocaine, all of them will be more fun and the wife will approve of none of them, including the safe. Remind her the safe is by far the best option for her. 😃:

wylk

Here is a decent introductory article on safe locks – http://www.crypto.com/papers/safelocks.pdf

That article has the advantage of using what is probably the same lock as in your safe – the Sargent & Greenleaf 6730. If you do get the safe and it is indeed the 6730, you may want to get a combination-change tool (also called a change key) so you can set your own combination (unless it’s a hand-change lock instead of the key-change lock). Change keys do show up on eBay such as http://www.ebay.com/itm/401077325797

It might be obvious, but DO NOT close and lock the door until you can successfully open it with the combination (and the door open) several times in a row. This safe looks like it’s not in great shape so examining all of the moving parts would be a good idea as well.

A couple of useful data sheets:

http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/pdf/630-358_multi_3wheel.pdf

http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/pdf/630-738_3-wheel_install.pdf

Doug MacQueen

I agree that in it’s current condition it is not worth much, but it is only the dial, not the lock that has been changed. Note the small round plate on the back of the door. That is the wheel curb, as it is called, on which the wheels reside. It is attached to the back of the lock and must be removed to look into the lock itself. So you can’t watch the wheels move as you turn the dial. For a novice, they can be difficult to work with, especially so if there is a lot of wear. Maybe he will pay you to cart it away.

WBrianS

Well, I got the safe and managed to get it to my garage and out of my truck.
The locking system was pretty simple, but old and required a bit of cleaning and welding to function. That done, I started to look into the combination system. I can see that the combo is 10, 75, 30…but I can’t figure out the rotation configuration. I assumed it spun counterclockwise for the first number, 4x…then clockwise 3x, then counter 2x. I’m not sure now where I got that…but it didn’t work.
Spinning it clockwise first seemed to get me close, but the cuts in the wheels would always be just a little off. I oiled it with machine oil and it spins smooth- should there be some resistance? I think maybe it’s spinning too smooth and the slight drag is bringing it off the number.

After I wrapped up the purchase I asked the guy how much he’d paid for it and he said $200, but that when he was unloading it it fell over and 2 pennies rolled out from the woodwork inside. One was from 1860 and one was 1864. He said he sold them on Ebay and got about $400 total for them.
Anyone got an idea as to the safe’s age?

peerless

First off congrats on the project! Second is I think that maker of safe used poor casting techniques or raw materials for the lockworks. It’s a somewhat rare (NOT somewhat valuable) safe. In my years of servicing safes I have come across that exact one 3 times. ALL three had (different) broken internal parts where along the break it looked very grainy and pourous like swiss cheese. Welding cast iron is an uber art at the best of times and nearly impossible without the right filler rod(s), tools and technique. The first two customers declined to have the components properly repaired due to mainly cost. The third and most recent customer owned the safe for his entire life (age 89!) and used it for a long shuttered jewelry business. It was sentimental and he insisted it be repaired even though it could still be operated, albiet with numerous attempts. (The housing that holds the wheel pack and the driver wheel was shattered) While I am a capable welder certain things we farm out. Fast forward, the part was returned just last week! I promptly returned to the customer’s residence to reassemble everything on last Thursday. So with that being said, it is VERY fresh in my memory, haha! I’m almost 100% certain the dial is not original, the ones I’ve seen all have a very thin nickle plated over brass dial with knurling on the part of the dial you touch. It is a THREE number combination. The lock is dialed FOUR times COUNTERCLOCKWISE or LEFT to the first number of the combination. THREE times CLOCKWISE or RIGHT to the second number. TWO times COUNTERCLOCKWISE or LEFT to the third number. (EVERY time the number passes the dialing index counts as ONE time, even if it isn’t a full revouoution). Lastly the dial would be turned CLOCKWISE or RIGHT until the part below the lockcase drops into place via gravity. (the point this part pivots on should NEVER be lubricated, only cleaned until no more dirt comes off of it, then assembled dry). The wheel pack (as you are holding it in the picture) has the wheel with the first number on the combo installed on first, then second followed by the last wheel as it equates to the combination. Between each wheel is an antirotation ring that prevents each wheel from prematurely affecting it’s neighboring wheel. (The moveable part in the center of each wheel is called the FLY and these parts also recieve NO LUBRICATION, just cleaning with brake parts cleaner or oxygen sensor cleaner). The wheels are refered to as “hand change” or “finger change” as they are 2 pieces pressed together by “hand or finger” pressure. The number on each wheel that is in front of the little hatch mark is the GENERAL number of the combination. It could actually be off by several digits, and in the case of the one I just worked on as many as 7 on one of the wheels. I am proficient at changing and resetting all safe combinations. Due to the rather shoppy nature of these locks and the fact that each wheel and it’s mating components are NOT interchangeable between each other the lock last week took over 2 hours of pure frustration for something that should be at most 15 minutes - keeping in mind - I KNOW WHAT I’M DOING! LOL! My best advise to you is to lift the door off the hinges (gravity and old sticky grease hold it on) and drop it off to a locksmith where the money spent will have offset the asprins from the massive headache of attempting it yourself. Notice on the openings of each wheel someone filed the “gates” wider to compensate for a combo being off by some numbers and obviously did not know (or want to) set the numbers the right & proper way. When the combination is correctly set and wheels not aborted, you should only be able to dial each number of the combination off by at most ONE number and have it still open smoothly.

I know many people from around the country with outstanding lock shops whom you could take the door, however nobody near Memphis, SORRY! Scout out the guy who has been in business forever…🙁smirk):

Hope this helps some!
–Vince

Grayhair

You can try Webster Safe & Lock, 3020 Millbranch Rd, Memphis. 130 years in the business. Click here for a map. They were bought by Redhawk, a bank service company about 10 or 15 years ago, but I think they still do general safe work. Their number should still be (901) 332-2911.

WBrianS

Thanks Peerless and Grayhair.
I tried the combination about 100 times as Peerless described, and then I’d take the wheels out and check and they’d be off. I thought it needed to be inverted (CW where you’d said CCW and so on) and I tried that about 100 times. It seemed to get me to the same spot on the wheels.
Then I monkeyed with it by moving my index number a few digits either way on all 3 numbers. It never would line up completely.
Finally I found that there was slop in the dial key part. A little Loc-Tite got that right, and now it dials in like magic!
It was a fun project, but I have no need of a big safe and a buddy of mine is crazy for it. I painted the outside with polyurethane to preserve the logos on the front as well as the rust and scratches all over it. He’s going to put it in his living room as a cool end table. And pay me the $200 I paid for it, as well as a bottle of moonshine that he makes.

So, thanks for the information and walking me through this! It was a funny project for the week.

Beaman

I’m the guy that ended up with this project and its nearing completion. I did call and talk to people at John Baumann and they were happy to see pictures of it but had no further info to express other than it wasn’t made by them, (he said it was a Halls or similar brand) and of course 1870 ish due to the hand painted on logo. My own research has not found another like it… with the hinge side of the door fitting into a lip, and rather thin wheels for its size. The name across the top was a business in St Charles (St Louis area) that no longer exists and historical information of this level is just not around … at least not online.

Still looking for a proper flat key lock for the inside door…. and smaller one for a safe deposit box door ill have to make. These locks are not easy to find.
I have refinished the inside wood, new felts and carpet bottom, nice shinny inside and out…. Por-15 makes an excellent product. I had the stripes pained by hand and it looks perfect. (name stenciled on too)

At the end of the day I have a nice piece of old equipment that I’m proud to look at and have in my house. Thanks guys for all the great info. The lock works fine and it should be around another 100 years.

Arcade Al

Great to hear that it found a good home, against all the odds!

We’d love to see some pictures of it now.