Info on Old Chubb Sovereign Safe

agcsr25 · 2015-11-21T00:29:38+00:00

I just purchased a Chubb Sovereign Safe size 5520 with the QZ prefix. I have found one thread here that talks a little about it but can’t find any other info. I was wondering if anyone could shed more light on this safe? I know the dimensions and weight. How many were manufactured? What is the UL equivalent rating? Thoughts on the quality of this safe? Construction details? Appreciate any info about this safe. Thanks for your time and help. Regards, Andy

Huw Eastwood

agcsr25 wrote
I did read the link but was not sure if that was accurate or marketing hyperbole by Lacka safes trying to make a sale.

The subjects a minefield to be honest and why they used wording like ‘equivalent to’ or similar, as I don’t think It was tested at that level in the USA, you’d probably get a different answer from different people. Also, in Britain at least, everything has changed with safe ratings since those days, and tested or not, the level of cover granted on older safes varies considerably between insurers.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Doug MacQueen wrote
If you are looking for big and heavy, this bad boy Corliss would be hard to beat at 32,000 lbs. Built in the 1880’s, not many of this size were made.

Cheers Doug, I get a hernia every time I see that picture :-)

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Safeone wrote
Your dates are spot on Max. Below is the 242 from the 20’s. Heavy in the extreme considering its size. Click on picture for bigger image. Bit of info in French as well

Coupe d’un coffre-fort grande puisance Fichet construction 242 bis modèle 126
(poids 2300kg~

thanks Safeone, I got the dates right but the weight wrong!
there never seems to be much out there on either of them. I’ve seen a few 242 pics but Le Super-Fichet on the Dutch site seems to be the only one on the net. Like you said amazing safes and outstanding weight for the size. I want one…
easy to move around on a sack truck too compared to Dougs 32,000 lb Corliss….;-)

[unknown]

Chubby

agcsr25 wrote
Thanks to all for your answers.
I did read the link but was not sure if that was accurate or marketing hyperbole by Lacka safes trying to make a sale.

Heavy with hyperbole, but that is still one of the best safes made by one of the greatest manufacturers. What more do you need or want?

That or a Tann Diamond are as good as it gets.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Chubby wrote
That or a Tann Diamond are as good as it gets.

….Or an SLS Gem- which was actually tested to TXTL60 :-)

[unknown]

Safeone

MaxVaultage wrote
thanks Safeone, I got the dates right but the weight wrong!
there never seems to be much out there on either of them. I’ve seen a few 242 pics but Le Super-Fichet on the Dutch site seems to be the only one on the net. Like you said amazing safes and outstanding weight for the size. I want one…
easy to move around on a sack truck too compared to Dougs 32,000 lb Corliss….;-)

Max, found this quote below in the reply to an online safe enquiry. Seems there was indeed a 30,000lb safe floating (well not exactly) around. Makes my quest for a 5 ton Tann diamond seem a tad tame now !!

_The “size” of the safe was based on the interior space, which I believe was the width. Corliss’s signature model was the “Planet Safe”, an enormous safe deposit safe made in a 48″, 13,000 lb model and a 64″, 30,000 lb model. The Company’s Spherical - the “smaller model” - was also a behemoth, available in 32″ and 36″ versions, weighing 8,000 and 12,000 lbs.

So based on your dimensions, you probably have the 36″ version which would weigh 12,000 lbs. If you have the smaller 32″ version, the weight would be less.

The Corliss Safe Manufacturing Company was organized in 1881 for the purpose of manufacturing the safes of his invention, the factory being located on the New York, New Haven and Hartford railroad, in the suburb of the city of Providence known as Auburn, the officers of the company being William Corliss, president, and Henry W. Wilkinson, treasurer. Here the Corliss safe was manufactured for a number of years, their produce being used in all parts of the world, until the business was finally absorbed by the Mosler Safe Company, and the business removed to New York City, in 1895.
Mosler acquired the Corliss Safe company in 1895, continuing the brand under the “Mosler-Corliss” label until about 1910.

If your safe has the Mosler-Corliss label, then it would have been manufactured between 1895 to 1910.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Yep the Corliss ‘Planets’ were incredible, they’ve been discussed in a few threads before, I know Doug has a couple of pics he’s posted.

At that weight they have to rank as the heaviest safes ever made, although the doors and bodies were of course large castings, making their construction quite different to most safes. I think the Chatwood CB Quality would probably be the heaviest safe of conventional construction, rectangular door, 10 inch protective thickness on all 6 sides, and I think about 7 tons.

Keep us posted posted on your Tann Diamond quest- I’m sure they crop up from time to time but Sod’s law says it’s probably the largest sizes when they do. Five tons sounds heavy enough to me, there goes hernia number 2…

Chubby

MaxVaultage wrote
….Or an SLS Gem- which was actually tested to TXTL60 :-)

That is true. Other than the ones for testing did they ever actually manufacture any?

[unknown]

Chubby

Would that vintage of Sovereign have the deflector plates round the locks that were fitted to the later Bankers’ Treasuries?

Huw Eastwood

Chubby wrote
That is true. Other than the ones for testing did they ever actually manufacture any?

they definitely made at least 3- safeman pointed out that one was sacrificed to testing, and a LH hinged and a RH hinged example have been up for sale. As for the rumoured ‘one for Buckingham Palace’ and one in the Middle East I think they were just that.

Heres 2 of them, don’t blame me if you want one…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Ld6f_LkyE

[unknown]

Safeone

MaxVaultage wrote
they definitely made at least 3- safeman pointed out that one was sacrificed to testing, and a LH hinged and a RH hinged example have been up for sale. As for the rumoured ‘one for Buckingham Palace’ and one in the Middle East I think they were just that.

Heres 2 of them, don’t blame me if you want one…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Ld6f_LkyE

Think I am correct in saying that is the Model 3525 which, for its size, weighs in at a respectable 7950lbs / 3606kgs / 3.6 tonne but……… its the Model 6325 that sparked my interest at 15,260lbs / 6925kgs / 6.9 tonne. Cant find out any production number details at all but have a sls catalogue which does show it as a safe that you could order. Anyone got one lay around that they don’t want ~

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Safeone wrote
Think I am correct in saying that is the Model 3525 which, for its size, weighs in at a respectable 7950lbs / 3606kgs / 3.6 tonne but……… its the Model 6325 that sparked my interest at 15,260lbs / 6925kgs / 6.9 tonne. Cant find out any production number details at all but have a sls catalogue which does show it as a safe that you could order. Anyone got one lay around that they don’t want ~

Safeone you’d actually prefer the largest and heaviest size @ nearly 7000 kilos?? There goes hernia number 3…

Its at this point regarding sizes and numbers where it gets very hazy. I’ve been under the belief that manufacturers would often submit 5 sided versions of their top safes for testing- ie testers of identical spec but with no back, as the damage was always so extensive. If this was the case here, then presumably all the ‘proper’ models survived (however many that was), and there should be an intact 6325 out there somewhere.
If that’s not the case, then perhaps it was actually the big 6325 that was the one sacrificed? sorry Safeone :-(

I’ve never seen a pic or heard mention of the larger sizes other than what’s been posted in various threads on here, so there’s a lot of smoke and mirrors it seems.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Chubby wrote
Would that vintage of Sovereign have the deflector plates round the locks that were fitted to the later Bankers’ Treasuries?

Sadly never encountered a Sovereign but I would hope they did at that level. Although the deflectors were highly effective they were simple additions in that they fitted with existing screws around the isolator housing cover, so there would be no excuse if they didn’t!!

[unknown]

Safeone

maxvaultage wrote
safeone you’d actually prefer the largest and heaviest size @ nearly 7000 kilos?? There goes hernia number 3…

Its at this point regarding sizes and numbers where it gets very hazy. I’ve been under the belief that manufacturers would often submit 5 sided versions of their top safes for testing- ie testers of identical spec but with no back, as the damage was always so extensive. If this was the case here, then presumably all the ‘proper’ models survived (however many that was), and there should be an intact 6325 out there somewhere.
If that’s not the case, then perhaps it was actually the big 6325 that was the one sacrificed? Sorry safeone :-(

i’ve never seen a pic or heard mention of the larger sizes other than what’s been posted in various threads on here, so there’s a lot of smoke and mirrors it seems.

Max, top shelf safe porn attached :-) I actually live not that far away from the Mather & Platt site where these monsters were produced, wonder if any former workers can be located ?? Sounds like a job for my siblings with all that social media non sense they get involved with, never mind cats that look like Hitler this is important research I need help with !!

~[attach]14715[/attach

[unknown]

dc-2503021.pdf

2MB

Huw Eastwood

Safeone wrote
Max, top shelf safe porn attached :-) I actually live not that far away from the Mather & Platt site where these monsters were produced, wonder if any former workers can be located ?? Sounds like a job for my siblings with all that social media non sense they get involved with, never mind cats that look like Hitler this is important research I need help with !!

~[attach]14715[/attach

My wife said you’re a naughty naughty man showing stuff like that. Wow, I wonder how many of those brochures were printed? Bearing in mind that safeman admitted the Gem’s inclusion in the 1979 Levy Ratings was accidental, as it was then apparent it was never going into full production. That’s a top brochure to have Safeone and pretty rare I would think.

Regarding tracking down former workers, Ive spoken to a couple who remembered the Gem in the past, but I have to say that even back then 10 or 15 years ago they spoke with hazy memories of it. It seems there were ‘myths’ and rumours from the word go as to where they were destined and actual specs etc, which will inevitably get more distorted and hazier as years go by.

Shame that such an incredible feat should end up lost in obscurity, but then it’s no different with vintage cars or watches- it’s amazing how much fact can become lost and how much myth becomes dreamt up in just a few decades.

So you’ve changed your mind from a Tann Diamond to a Gem 6325…i think it would probably be the ultimate if you could get one. Hope you don’t live in a flat or a tree house…

BTW they also made a handful of models called the ‘sapphire’. It was below the Gem but still way above the Treasury, and guess what, there’s the same smoke and legend with them as well!

[unknown]

Safeone

Max

I was watching one of these recently on e-bay. Big quality safe for £360 but as usual its shifting the thing.. The link is below :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SLS-Sapphire-5020-Eurograde-5-6-Maximum-Security-Safe-/321909569607?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=IamDkXoEHTbNPHszaWWvg2p080w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Huw Eastwood

I can’t believe that, £360 says it all really. If that’s all that people are prepared to pay then that’s what it goes for.
As for moving it I wouldn’t want that job nowadays but at <2000 kilos it’s a mere featherweight compared to the Gem 6325 that you’re after! Hello hernia #4..

Unsure from memory if the Sapphire was based on the Treasury or whether it was unique heavier walled like the Gem. More I think of it…Based on the Treasury door and body I think..but not 100% sure.

The one you linked on eBay looks like a standard Treasury in build proportions, so it would figure if it was. SLS always made their higher range safes look similar and deliberately left them unbadged without model names, to prevent identification by any would-be-attackers. The only way of telling the various Bankers and Treasury series apart was from the stamped bolt numbers.

That eBay seller seemed to have done their homework and supported it with good info so I’m sure it was all ok. It’d be down to the bolt numbers as the identifying factor to be 100% sure though. What a safe for 360 quid!!

bTW looking at the sellers username, I used to see the occasional double bitted safe lock with that name on. Wonder if there’s a connection? Isn’t it amazing how easy the subject changes while on the net! It’ll be pan fried scallops and Champion spark plugs next…

Chubby

MaxVaultage wrote
Sadly never encountered a Sovereign but I would hope they did at that level. Although the deflectors were highly effective they were simple additions in that they fitted with existing screws around the isolator housing cover, so there would be no excuse if they didn’t!!

I think the only excuse would be timing- was this one made before Chubb started fitting the deflector plates? If so it would be very easy to fit them oneself. If there were no available screws they could simply be welded in place.

It would be neat to be able to say one had upgraded a Sovereign!

[unknown]

Chubby

MaxVaultage wrote
I can’t believe that, £360 says it all really. If that’s all that people are prepared to pay then that’s what it goes for.

I think the point is that as less and less cash is used, there is less call for that sort of grade of safe. In the old days a decent sized supermarket would have a grade 1 somewhere to hold cash until the run to the nightsafe at the local bank. Filling stations would have some fairly robust units as well. Nowadays cash holdings are very much lower as supermarkets take so much payment by card and even offer “cash back” to reduce holdings even more and get cleared funds into their accounts instantly.

Possibly the reason the gem never caught on was it was a good safe, but at the wrong stage of history! Also most of the serious buyers- basically banks- were heavy users of Chubb or Tann and would possibly not want to change.

[unknown]

Safeone

Yes it seems that cash use is dwindling quite a lot now. The passage below backs this up. On the selfish side I await a sale of cheap safes to flood the market……….or maybe not.

I can still see a use for proper safes in the jewellery and gem trade where a tray of ‘stuff’ can be worth tens of thousands of pounds. A jeweller friend of mine in Manchester city centre has a Chubb Trident in his shop and thankfully did not trade it in against one of the new Eurograde Chubbs which he was offered only last year. To be honest, and this is mentioned a lot on here, the layers of electronic security that kicks in prior to anyone getting close to the safe means the need for the huuuuge mammoth safe is not as big as it once was. Still nice to look at though aren’t they :o:

"Analysis of data from active Halifax personal current account customers shows that cashless payment methods have increased to account for 84% of all current account transactions.
Meanwhile, cheque and cash payments continue to fall - cash withdrawals have declined 8.3% and now make up just 16.6% of activity while cheque-based transactions dropped 20% last year and now account for just 1.2% of transactions.
Furthermore, the amount being spent in cash and cheque transactions is dropping. Of every £100 spent, just £18.33 is cash withdrawals (16.6%), down £1.82 since 2013 and while cheques account for 1 in every 100 transactions they account for just £8.14 in every £100 spent."

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