Old Heavy Safe

FBennettandson

Hello,
Please could someone tell me if this safe is worth any money, if so what is the best way to sell this safe, as we would like to get rid of it asap. Or is there any value in this as scrap?

Please see the pictures attached.
The safe is very heavy and we have the safe key but maybe not the internal draw keys but the the drawers are unlocked.

I hope someone can help.

Regards
Neil

Huw Eastwood

I think It’s bad news Neil
Value on one like that is so low it’s pretty much totally outweighed by the hassle involved in collecting/moving it. ‘Collectability’ factor is nil really, so it’s got little appeal other than it works and might appeal to someone who’ll see it as a potential project to tidy up.

1- eBay will reach the most potential buyers, but there’s always dozens of far better ones already on there…
2- Local free ads, Gumtree etc, ok but limited to local catchment
3- scrap it- bear in mind the relevant going rate price per ton, estimate it’s weight and do a quick calculation to work out its not going to generate much at all, and that’s after all the hassle of getting it there.

safeman

FBennettandson wrote
Hello,
Please could someone tell me if this safe is worth any money, if so what is the best way to sell this safe, as we would like to get rid of it asap. Or is there any value in this as scrap?

Please see the pictures attached.
The safe is very heavy and we have the safe key but maybe not the internal draw keys but the the drawers are unlocked.

I hope someone can help.

Regards
Neil

Before writing off this old safe perhaps some attempt at identifying the maker would be worthwhile just in case it’s not as uninteresting as it looks.

Could you possibly provide a clear photograph of the door key and also the drawer key which appears to
have an interestingly shaped bow.

This is a very early design having the key operate the bolts directly before the use of the small lock and also having a thick made-up door rather than the usual thinner solid plate.

There were relatively few safemakers at the time this was made and even if the safe itself is not worth
much, perhaps the lock itself might attract a collector.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

I have the lock removed from a very similar safe to the one pictured here, so I would think its going to be similar.

Was never able to identify any makers for the few we encountered, the ‘plain’ flat sided examples never appeared to be marked, unlike the Carron Company safes which were similar in cast iron but usually more ornate with ‘panel’ effects or mouldings cast in the door and sides. In contrast these flat sided examples never featured any ornamentation or makers markings, so we always wondered if they were of similar age to the Carron’s or perhaps older. I also have a small size cast Carron with similar lock, although the Carron key is very small in comparison to this one.

magpie

With that style of hinge, could it be by Tann?

safeman

Not quite identical but it would seem that the designs changed quite frequently.

This Tann dating from around 1860 has many identical features but
the lock number plate on the inside of the back plate was fairly standard and bore the name of Tann’s lockmakers - B & P Walters of Wolverhampton and is not apparent in the mystery safe.

This slightly different model is dated from around 1865 and also uses the large lock as illustrated.

A sight of the actual door key may be of help. The bow of the drawer key has the look of Cotterill about it which was favoured by S.Whitfield in the early days so maybe ….

Huw Eastwood

Tann would be interesting, but I’d be amazed if it was. Although we haven’t seen the lock assembly on Neil’s safe in question, going from past examples of similar appearance I’m convinced it’s going to be as basic as my example I posted. Carron’s were the same, with the crude warded assembly just screwed to the inside of the door.

I’d expect a lot more if it was a Tann, more like the James Gray, Edinburgh example on safeman’s website in the old safe museum section. The lock unit on that ones a beauty- a lot heavier construction and has additional levers to overcome, all made to a very high level of precision for the day. I’d expect a Tann to be more on that level than the examples I’ve encountered. But, I admit we haven’t seen the lock on this one yet…

Thinking about it though, if it was a Tann then I think safeman would have sniffed it from 1000 yards…

PS: safeman posted his reply while I was doing this one, so it might all be a bit out of sync…

Huw Eastwood

Well, seeing the first example that safeman’s just posted has knocked me sideways, and it’s a Tann?
ill go and get me steel toe cap boots ready, anyone know should I fry or braise them…I had no idea and wouldn’t have associated that basic style with Tann at all. Hats off to you guys :-)

kwoswalt99

MaxVaultage wrote
Well, seeing the first example that safeman’s just posted has knocked me sideways, and it’s a Tann?
ill go and get me steel toe cap boots ready, anyone know should I fry or braise them…I had no idea and wouldn’t have associated that basic style with Tann at all. Hats off to you guys :-)

Maybe you could make boots wellington

[unknown]

FBennettandson

Thanks for all your help with this, I didn’t think of looking for markings on the keys! The main key says ‘Chubb Patent Safe’ and the draw key has no markings but on the drawer lock it also say ‘Patent’.

Does this help?

Thanks in advance.

Neil

safeman

FBennettandson wrote
Thanks for all your help with this, I didn’t think of looking for markings on the keys! The main key says ‘Chubb Patent Safe’ and the draw key has no markings but on the drawer lock it also say ‘Patent’.

Does this help?

Thanks in advance.

Neil

Well Neil it looks like we’ve almost cracked it! I’m no lock expert but I would hazard a guess that the safe lock is Chubb’s Improved Patent with a draw bolt from a period somewhere between 1824 and 1833. I’ve never seen one before with as many as 9 levers. The term draw bolt refers to the requirement for the key to withdraw the main boltwork as in the time before the use of the small lock and bolt operating handle.

The similarity in the appearance of the internal compartment and that of the early Tann safe in my post of the 26th may in fact be due to the safe having been made for Charles Chubb by Edward Tann & Son who manufactured Chubb’s safes and doors from 1828 to 1836. At first I thought it a mystery that Mr Chubb had not attached one of his lock plates to the back of the door but in fact this procedure may only have happened towards the end of the contract when Tann would have despatched the partly finished safes for the final lock and plate fitting by Chubb. I believe Chubb’s first own make safes took place in their Cowcross Street factory in Smithfield in 1835.

You may now feel inclined to remove the back pan and reveal the actual lock and it’s serial number.

[unknown]

FBennettandson

Thank you very much.

I assume I should be able to unbolt the back plate?

Regards

magpie

Here is a similar key, which I would guess dates between the early 1850s and 1877. I imagine this would be for a lock having 7 definitive type levers and a barrel and curtain. The wide step, nearest to the bow, probably both lifts the top lever and turns the curtain. It has the St Paul’s Church Yard address on the bow.
If the safe pre-dates this period, perhaps it was re-fitted with a Chubb lock at some point? Will be interesting to see the lock and serial number.

safeman

FBennettandson wrote
Thank you very much.

I assume I should be able to unbolt the back plate?

Regards

As the 6 bolts attaching the back plate may have been undisturbed for all this time they may prove to be a little stubborn. With the widest bladed screwdriver you can find - ½″ across at least - and with a Mole Type (vice-grip) lockable wrench attached to the stem about 2″ from the end, the bolts should unscrew.

There is still a mystery regarding this safe - from the early date I have guessed at it is unlikely to have fire-resistant chambers in the body and door and the interior may just be lined to carry the shelf/drawer fittings. As it appears from your photograph the plate on the back of the door does not seem to incorporate a fire-proof chamber. There may however have been some fire-resistance incorporated (Chubb Patent of 1835) and Tann’s Account Books show that they were incorporating ‘fild’ (sic) linings for Chubb and others around this time.

I would therefore welcome as many illustrations as possible of the lockcase compartment to see where the true facts actually lie. To answer your original question regarding value, the lock, if in it’s original condition, could prove to be a very collectible item.

[unknown]

FBennettandson

Hello,

So these are the picture with the serial number 241316! All feedback and comments would be gratefully received.

Regards
Neil

Huw Eastwood

Wow, this has turned out to be a bit of a surprise shocker all round!
The serial numbers actually higher than I was imagining from the appearance of the safe.

241316 puts it very roughly late 1840s to 1850s I would think, based on a very low serial #19801 being issued in 1838, and a very high #899500 issued by 1882- Horsley Fields workshops Wolverhampton. I’m sure someone else can narrow it down for you.

They moved from the St.Pauls Churchyard address in 1877.

Its a nice lock Neil, after all the suspense it turned out its not a Tann (phew), but it’s a great Chubb- congrats 🙂

safeman

FBennettandson wrote
Hello,

So these are the picture with the serial number 241316! All feedback and comments would be gratefully received.

Regards
Neil

The Chubb numbers at that period only cover a broad band - 222553 July 3rd 1850 to 260376 March 10th 1854 which puts your lock approximately 1852 ’ish.

Also as Max points out there’s something amiss here as the safe has all the appearance of a low grade non-fire resisting very basic construction of a much earlier period and it certainly doesn’t bear any of the hallmarks of Chubb manufacture which was of a high standard as exhibited at the Great Exhibition in 1851.

So, unknown maker using a high quality (to be confirmed when you care to remove the cap and show us the mechanism un-adulterated) Chubb lock.

Although the safe in the attachment is a sadly neglected object, it is for all that one of the very earliest examples of a Chubb safe having been made in 1847.

[unknown]

magpie

I would go for a Tann safe that, sometime later, has had its lock replaced with a Chubb lock.

Chubby

magpie wrote
I would go for a Tann safe that, sometime later, has had its lock replaced with a Chubb lock.

I agree in part. I think the most likely is that the safe body predates the lock. A Chubb lock does not mean it is a Chubb safe by any means.

[unknown]

FBennettandson

Thanks again for all your comments and knowledge.

Please find attached more pictures of the lock in all it glory. Again please let me know your opinions.

Regards
Neil