unable to open old french safe, even with a key

chateaurobert

in the house we bought recently, we have found a build in (locked) safe as well as an old mechanical key. however, whilst the key clearly fits in the lock, it does not open the mechanism. it seems there is something missing that will open the lock, besides the key we are using… as next to the lock, there are two moveable springs in a slot…. does anyone have a ide what safe this is and how to actually open it. I have attached some pictures of the safe and the key. tks a million…

Arcade Al

I’ve read about locks where you have to move things in a certain way and there are sometimes hidden bits as well behind false rivets etc.
I can’t remember what they are known as or offer any further advice unfortunately.

wylk

Occasionally the “obvious” keyhole is a false one, and the proper keyhole is hidden behind something.

Doug MacQueen

If you search the Safes, Strongrooms section on this forum for “Help with an old Italian safe”, you may find this is of some help. Does the key turn all the way around without engaging anything? I have seen one where the key had to be rotated part way and then pushed further and turned. Can you post clearer close up pictures of the key hole? Doug

Huw Eastwood

Yes try and get some clear close-ups of both keyhole and the springs in the slots as it will help everyone a lot.

BTW don’t apply any force on the key! Like the others said there’s probably a ‘trick’ involved to operate it, but the ‘springs in slots’ sounds weird- are there no pins or projections? Wondering whether there might be parts missing.

It’s a process of elimination- establish what may be involved assuming everything is intact and working, and that there is an additional procedure to allow operation of the key. If there’s not, it could be any one of many other possibilities- if you don’t know the history of the safe- when it was last opened, was it working ok etc. Sometimes it can be corrosion, or door stuck on something very thin like paper, card or cloth etc but more than likely it’s down to working out what those slots and springs are for

chateaurobert

MaxVaultage wrote
Yes try and get some clear close-ups of both keyhole and the springs in the slots as it will help everyone a lot.

BTW don’t apply any force on the key! Like the others said there’s probably a ‘trick’ involved to operate it, but the ‘springs in slots’ sounds weird- are there no pins or projections? Wondering whether there might be parts missing.

It’s a process of elimination- establish what may be involved assuming everything is intact and working, and that there is an additional procedure to allow operation of the key. If there’s not, it could be any one of many other possibilities- if you don’t know the history of the safe- when it was last opened, was it working ok etc. Sometimes it can be corrosion, or door stuck on something very thin like paper, card or cloth etc but more than likely it’s down to working out what those slots and springs are for

Thanks to all for all the feedback. I am getting even more intrigued now. I have added some more pics. have a look at either side of the key hole. It seems there is a spring inside both slots. might be that I need something else to open it (like in the Italian safe post?), although one of the two slot can be moved up and down with a screw driver. it is not corroded as the doors can move slightly.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Movement in the doors is definitely a good sign so back to those slots either side of the keyhole- I can’t make out springs in there at all. Can you feel any sort of spring pressure or tension? I’m also confused when you say you can move one of the slots up and down using a screwdriver- I could understand a small part inside the slot, or at the back of the slot, being able to move up and down, so I’m guessing that’s it. This may well be the critical part to working out what they are for and what else might be needed. It may be you need another form of key (may be as basic as a tapered barb or spike)- but keep trying as any potential movement- a part that tilts, pivots, slides or whatever will be a big clue to what’s happening and what needs doing.

I’m also looking at the rectangular plate on the LH door- guessing it’s a dummy or false escutcheon but worth checking it out for any movement just in case. Does the RH door overlap the left (most likely) as its difficult to tell from the pics. All these things add up and can lead to pointers in the right direction. good luck and keep at it..

Chubby

I have seen one where the key had to be rotated part way and then pushed further and turned. Can you post clearer close up pictures of the key hole? Doug[/QUOTE]

John Tann made some of those. If I recall correctly the bolt didn’t deadlock for some reason. (Does it actually matter on the back of a Tann door?)

Sorry for diverting the thread a bit.

Doug MacQueen

It appears that the missing key escutcheon would slide up. The fact it is missing makes me think it was pried off. It might be that moving the escutcheon up not only exposed the keyhole but also moves something inside the lock, allowing the key to operate. Try moving the side slot parts up and try the key.

David Hovey

When you slide the key all the way in, what direction and how far does it rotate? If the key is rotating 360 degrees your probably missing a step in the opening sequence that partially retracts the bolt/latch. The final key rotation to throw the bolt/latch open would be CW.

Check the key tip barrel. Make sure there is no obstruction or dirt build-up. If so clean it out so the key will fully insert.

Huw Eastwood

This isn’t any help on the mystery safe in question, but it does show the sort of gadgetry and tricks they used to come up with back then