Can anyone help date my Chatwood

Lawis

Hi All,

At the family business we always had a safe, which was always surplus to requirements, but it stayed there as there was no better place for it.

I requested we had a clear out, and my Father insisted the safe be sold/given away. I however decided I wanted to keep the safe, so I lugged it home and put it away.

I would be very interested to know when the safe was made.
The safe is a Chatwood, and the fact Miller is missing from the name may suggest it was from before the two merged, but that is just a guess.

I have attached two pictures of it, unfourtunetly I did not get one of the safe itself, and it is now very much out of the way, but I could get to it if need be.

It has one key hole, a silver straights handle and two large pins that go across, with rounded corners.

I hope the pictures help 🙂

Many Thanks

Lewis

Lawis

Pictures

Chubby

You are completely correct in assuming that a Chatwood will predate the merger with Milner to create “Chatwood Milner”. Of course that was subsequently bought out by Chubb.

Chatwood was a manufacturer of high quality safes. The engineering in some of them is a delight to see and use. They made a range of safes from ordinary office types right up to those for bankers and goldsmiths.

Without some more general photos of the safe it would be impossible to say very much more really. Maybe somebody on the forum can date it from that serial number.

Tom Gordon

1947 that would be…

Lawis

Tom Gordon wrote
1947 that would be…

Wow!! Thanks a lot Tom, did you get that from the S/N

[unknown]

Lawis

Chubby wrote
You are completely correct in assuming that a Chatwood will predate the merger with Milner to create “Chatwood Milner”. Of course that was subsequently bought out by Chubb.

Chatwood was a manufacturer of high quality safes. The engineering in some of them is a delight to see and use. They made a range of safes from ordinary office types right up to those for bankers and goldsmiths.

Without some more general photos of the safe it would be impossible to say very much more really. Maybe somebody on the forum can date it from that serial number.

I’ll see if I can get a photo of the front of the safe, Indeed Tom has been able to do that!

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

[INDENT]

Lawis wrote
I’ll see if I can get a photo of the front of the safe, Indeed Tom has been able to do that!

[/INDENT]
Yessir

[unknown]

Lawis

Image 1

Lawis

Image 2

Lawis

Image 3

Lawis

Oh and it is about 45cm in height

Chubby

That looks to me like a size 1812 Duplex. The inside should be 18″ high and 12″ square. I probably don’t need to tell you that the bolt throwing handle is many things, but original isn’t one of them! If it is the model I think it is it would, originally, have had a cast alloy knob.

One rather nice design feature with these was that the drawer in the base didn’t go the full width of the inside leaving a small “pigeon hole” to the right side (the side where the carriages are). This was so if you mounted the safe with the right hand side flush against a wall and opened the door it was still possible to operate the drawer- it didn’t foul on the lock pan. The sort of design touch that companies like Chatwood used to use.

Very hard around the lock, but tough on the less sensitive areas with a single dead AED just to the right of the lock with an interesting feature….

safeman

Unfortunately some glitch in the system is preventing me from enlarging thumbnails but notwithstanding
I seem to recognize what was known as the Chatwood Texagon or Household quality.

These are the standard external fittings in white. This model has the entire body cast in concrete with a light metal lining plate possibly conceived to reduce costs for the light domestic fire-resisting market.

The design is covered by Chatwoods Patent #365182 October 18th 1930.

From memory I seem to recall a safe of similar construction in a larger size similar the Major and Minor Duplex.
The reason for remembering it is that it was the first safe I ever had to open in 1948.

If and when I regain the facility to open thumbnails and find that I am totally mistaken
I will immediately issue an apology.

Lawis

Chubby wrote
That looks to me like a size 1812 Duplex. The inside should be 18″ high and 12″ square. I probably don’t need to tell you that the bolt throwing handle is many things, but original isn’t one of them! If it is the model I think it is it would, originally, have had a cast alloy knob.

One rather nice design feature with these was that the drawer in the base didn’t go the full width of the inside leaving a small “pigeon hole” to the right side (the side where the carriages are). This was so if you mounted the safe with the right hand side flush against a wall and opened the door it was still possible to operate the drawer- it didn’t foul on the lock pan. The sort of design touch that companies like Chatwood used to use.

Very hard around the lock, but tough on the less sensitive areas with a single dead AED just to the right of the lock with an interesting feature….

That would make sense regarding the handle as it doesn’t quite look right.
Very interesting what you said about th draw, this safe doesn’t have a draw, nor a shelf where one would fit, however another safe we have had this exact feature whereby the draw is smaller than the safe, furthermore this safe has the style of handle you mentioned. This one is a Chatwood Miller and slightly larger, with a double sided key rather than the single sides this has.

I’m very interested in what you said in your last paragraph, as I think it went over my head!!
Thank you very much for the information!!

[unknown]

Lawis

safeman wrote
Unfortunately some glitch in the system is preventing me from enlarging thumbnails but notwithstanding
I seem to recognize what was known as the Chatwood Texagon or Household quality.

These are the standard external fittings in white. This model has the entire body cast in concrete with a light metal lining plate possibly conceived to reduce costs for the light domestic fire-resisting market.

The design is covered by Chatwoods Patent #365182 October 18th 1930.

From memory I seem to recall a safe of similar construction in a larger size similar the Major and Minor Duplex.
The reason for remembering it is that it was the first safe I ever had to open in 1948.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12792[/ATTACH] If and when I regain the facility to open thumbnails and find that I am totally mistaken
I will immediately issue an apology.

Oh wow!! Well if it was the first one you opened, I am most deffently not letting you in for tea!! Even if it is empty…. Haaha.
How did you get in out of interest?

Very interesting about the concrete!! If it provides any help, the door is secured by about 6-8 Allen key bolts and there were two pins that lock (might not be called pins, but the things that lock it closed)

Thank you for your help!!

[unknown]

safeman

Lawis wrote
Oh wow!! Well if it was the first one you opened, I am most deffently not letting you in for tea!! Even if it is empty…. Haaha.
How did you get in out of interest?

Very interesting about the concrete!! If it provides any help, the door is secured by about 6-8 Allen key bolts and there were two pins that lock (might not be called pins, but the things that lock it closed)

Thank you for your help!!

Lawis,

At the time I started my apprenticeship, the usual method of opening basic fire-resisting safes (before I had made my first 2 in 1 pick) was to drill for the bolt end of the lock and apply pressure to enable picking with a single wire pick. If it was unpickable, enough force was then applied to break off the stump - and voila! The safe in question was pickable.

With better quality safes like Milner and Ratner the six lock mounting screws were drilled out using appropriate templates. A pig of a job if
there was no mains power.

P.S. The ‘pins’ are called bolts.

[unknown]

Chubby

Lawis wrote
That would make sense regarding the handle as it doesn’t quite look right.
Very interesting what you said about th draw, this safe doesn’t have a draw, nor a shelf where one would fit, however another safe we have had this exact feature whereby the draw is smaller than the safe, furthermore this safe has the style of handle you mentioned. This one is a Chatwood Miller and slightly larger, with a double sided key rather than the single sides this has.

I’m very interested in what you said in your last paragraph, as I think it went over my head!!
Thank you very much for the information!!

For goodness sake don’t put too much faith in what I say. If one of the experts on the site says it isn’t a duplex, then it isn’t.

Chatwood made Duplex and Duplex Major. The major wasn’t a better safe, it was just the next size up. The name Duplex was retained following the merger with Milner and I think even survived the takeover by Chubb. It was an incredibly successful model and they turn up all over I don’t know how many were made but seem to remember hearing that it was the most numerous safe ever made in its day.

The Duplextra was a higher spec. safe.

[unknown]

Lawis

safeman wrote
Lawis,

At the time I started my apprenticeship, the usual method of opening basic fire-resisting safes (before I had made my first 2 in 1 pick) was to drill for the bolt end of the lock and apply pressure to enable picking with a single wire pick. If it was unpickable, enough force was then applied to break off the stump - and voila! The safe in question was pickable.

With better quality safes like Milner and Ratner the six lock mounting screws were drilled out using appropriate templates. A pig of a job if
there was no mains power.

P.S. The ‘pins’ are called bolts.

Its great to think there are people who ‘crack’ safes outside of Hollywood, also know as lock smiths haha 🙂

i dont one suppose you would know where I could purchase an original handle, or just a more similar one

Thanks

Chubby wrote
For goodness sake don’t put too much faith in what I say. If one of the experts on the site says it isn’t a duplex, then it isn’t.

Chatwood made Duplex and Duplex Major. The major wasn’t a better safe, it was just the next size up. The name Duplex was retained following the merger with Milner and I think even survived the takeover by Chubb. It was an incredibly successful model and they turn up all over I don’t know how many were made but seem to remember hearing that it was the most numerous safe ever made in its day.

The Duplextra was a higher spec. safe.

Haaha fair enough!! The other safe could we’ll be a Majour perhaps 🙂
Thank you for your help 🙂

[unknown] [unknown]

Chubby

Looking again at the pictures the frame is entirely too thin for a duplex. My stupidity.

Huw Eastwood

I haven’t heard the name Texagon myself but I’m sure Safeman will be right- the safe is indeed a small Utility model and the sketches and details I have are from a 1946 one, so I’m sure Tom’s date is probably right as well.

The continuous hinge and single bit key lock directly in line with that hideous handle are the big identifying clues. Many also had a moulding down the left side of the door to match the hinge, and yes they were fitted with diecast furniture handles made by Union, so if you remove the handle you may well find it has Union or Josiah Parkes cast in the backplate.

The lock is a basic 7-lever with no false notches but some could be a little tricky to pick.

this is a world apart from the Duplex minors & Majors- they had Chatwood’s double bit locks, concealed internal hinges and weighed probably 5 times as much- there is one oddball I can think of though, which could cause a bit of confusion- not with your safe here but with the Duplex Minor- think they were called CMS and were made for Co-operative in the UK. used to see a lot of them and they picked very easily so never had the need to make notes. they had the curved body around the door but did have normal external hinge carriages if I remember right. They were certainly based on the Duplex appearance though as even the handle was a similar cast round knob with chrome plating, albeit smaller and flatter than the Duplex. Not similar enough to confuse someone in the know, but often did with the staff that used them.

Your safe here though is without a doubt the basic Utility model from the mid 1940s