Diebold Kienzle money chest with Yale Double Dial Lock

vlad0002

Hi all,

I’m new to the safe/lock collecting, and am looking for any information on the an antique Terwilliger bank safe with Yale double dial lock and pin timelock I have recently purchased. It has an internal vault with another two (!) Diebold locks. With those locks I figured out the combinations pretty quickly and they work fine. The safe is all mag. steel and weights at least 4500 lbs. The Yale lock has Paris exposition medals replicas on the wheel packs and was featured in American Heritage article I came across recently. I’ll post pictures a bit later.

The timelock is complete except for several screws and bolt in the door lock, runs well. The glass had unfortunately been replaced. I’ll bring it to a locksmith here in Minneapolis to see if the bolt and key can be made for it. The whole safe is in original, unrestored condition, with the external finish pretty much gone – paint cracked and chipped away. I am going to take pictures of what’s left of the finish, so I (or a restorer, if I decide to hire one) will be able to reference it, to reproduce original design as much as possible.

The double dial Yale lock is in imazing condition. It is a bit sticky, espessially the lower dial. I worked on it yesterday and can’t quite figure it out. I set all tumblers to the same number, so it’s just 5R to 50 and they all line up – I can see them lined up through a narrow opening. However, the bar does not fall in, so the lock does not open. If the wheel pack is removed – no problem, the bar clicks in and the lock opens easily. I’m sure I am missing something, but not knowing anything about this particular lock – I’m kind of lost. Anybody have a copy of some kind of reference or a link to one – I’ll appreciate it very much. Might be tough to come by – one locksmith told me he had only seen three such locks in his lifetime. Same goes for any info on Terwilliger safes and pin timelocks…

Also – any tips as far as cleaning/restoration goes? Is WD-40 a good choice for a cleaning/un-sticking agent? Anybody knows a good safe restouration person/company in Minneapolis/St. Paul area?

Thank you very much.

Paul Prescott

Well it sounds like you have a fine safe, and a great start to collecting - although maintaining such a high standard in items might be hard to do as you’ve started at the top !

It might be worth just dialing the combo on the Yale slightly off your numbers, to there maybe some slight wear on the drive pins ? Also I think you can remove the lock cap, and replace the curbs that would give you a full view of whats going one. One other thing to check - is the lock set to be opened by either dial & wheel pack ? I seem to remember that those locks can be set for dual control.

I do know an experienced collector with such a lock and will draw his attention to this post.

I for one am certainly looking forward to the pictures. Maximum picture upload is 256 kb per picture. 10 pictures per post, should you need more just do a further reply & you can add more.

Mark Bates

Hi-
The Yale Double is a push-pull dial lock. This action allows the lever to drop or be raised for locking. To understand this action, remove the curb/wheel assembly and turn the dial until the lowest portion of the drive cam is under the fence. Now pull outwards on the dial and the fence should drop in and allow the bolt to be retracted.

When you add the wheel/curb assembly there should be no difference in this action. If the wheels are indeed perfectly alighned as you say, about the only thing else I can think of is your dialing sequence. Carefully note the direction of turn that was required to retract the bolt. This same direction must be adhered to when the wheels are present.

kind regards-

Mark Bates

vlad0002

Thank you guys very much for your replies! I played with it some more yesterday and got it to work following the advise about trying a number that’s a bit off. Although all wheels set to 50, the bolt retracted on 48. Very happy.

Now, the lower dial. It’s rotating nice and smooth, but when there’s time to retract bolt, it’s really stiff. I tried cleaning insides of the lock with WD 40 – helped a little. I’ll keep working on it. Meanwhile, if you have any suggestions – please let me know.

And again – if someone knows of any refference about this specific lock – I’d be very interested. Right now it works that it can be unlocked with either dial, but it’s clearly designed to be also working in both dial unlocking mode. Not sure how to change it to that, though.

Pictures are coming soon.

Thanks again!

Paul Prescott

You may need to strip down, clean and then re-assemble the whole lock. These old locks very often used oil & grease that was animal based and as such it tends to harden and congeal over the years. If stripped and cleaned with a mild solvent to remove the grease and then lightly lubricated on bearing points you may find things are a whole lot better.

Do not be tempted to try and do any repairs to the timelock - they are really best left to watchmakers - at least as far as the movements are concerned.

Paul Prescott

vlad0002 wrote
Although all wheels set to 50, the bolt retracted on 48. Very happy.

Pictures are coming soon.

There is 1 other thing that could be causing the problems, is the dial ring loose by any chance, being a hand change lock the alignment of the ring is critical …

vlad0002

Hello again,

Finally, I prepared some pictures – please see below. I spent the whole weekend cleaning and tweaking the safe. I took apart all the (3) locks, bathed the parts in laquer thinner to get rid of the grease and lightly lubricated them with 3-in-one oil (any better lubricants out there for this?). I used very little oil,as I’ve discovered too much does a disservice: the locks become sticky. Just like with the guns – lube ’em for storage, but clean them dry for action. Small locks are actually Diebold-Kienzle and were easy to figure out. The main Yale lock – it took some time to wrap my head around it. In the end I’ve adjusted everything and it works like a clock now. Couple of issues remain, like this unlocking on 48 rather then 50 – that did not go away with cleaning. Timelock runs perfectly, too, keeping very accurate time, locking and unlocking the safe appropriately. I did not dare to actually close it with the timelock activated, of course.

Anyway, please let me know what you think. As I said before, any info on this type of safe/locks/timelock will be appreciated very much.

Thanks again.

vlad0002

More pics…

drcwks

What an utterly fantastic safe you have. As oldlock said…you are starting at the top if this is your first safe item.

Where did you come up with the safe maker of TERWILLIGER? I never expected to see them associated with that type of safe.

I envisioned TERWILLIGER SAFES to be keyed since they were an earlier safe company….but I do believe I have seen pictures of just an ordianry fire safe
that did have TERWILLIGER embossed on the front wheel skirts…and that safe had an ordinary dial…possibly PILLARD combination lock.

I’m surprised the inside locks are DIEBOLD-KNZL—– That would lead me to believe the safe was really made by DIEBOLD. I don’t remember a DIEBOLD lock in
a non-Diebold safe. This is a good mystery safe…..I have never seen one before and you’re lucky to have it all intact..EVEN the keys for the wheel packs….

I’ll see what info I have on TERWILLIGER safes…but from my last research on this…..it’s very limited. I do have a safe plaque from this company. So I know it was an early
safe manufacturer. Maybe it’s possible there were more than one TERWILLIGER (relatives) who were in the safe business…

Thanks for the excellent pictures.

DRC

vlad0002

Thank you for your reply, DRC.

The reason I think it’s Terwilliger is that the person who sold it to me told me that it was. I personally could not find any place on a safe where the make is indicated. I know it’s pre-time lock era, as the timelock was retrofitted to it, there was no provision for one when the safe was made.

I’ll very much appreciate any information you can find.

Thanks!

vlad0002

This safe is an early Diebold.
lucky

vlad0002

Thanks for this information, lucky! I did suspect it was a Diebold, as the original decorating pattern was suggesting.

Any pointers on where to get more info on that? Like sales catalog or an ad or a service “manual”? Diebold is still in business – any use in trying to contact them for some literature? Would they still service it under original warranty 🙂 ?

Thanks again.

vlad0002

When the Antique Safe Association went under, there was some old advert sheets I left with Bob, but I have no idea what happebed to them.
The safe was available with or w/out inner chest. Do not remember dates, but believe early 1800s.
As for opening on 48, not 50, believe you will find dial ring slightly tweaked.
Would suggest restoring safe, send pics to Diebold ad dept & asking for any historical documents (offer to allow them to use pics for publicity purposes).
lucky