Help Identifying Small Safe

timof5stars

I finally beginning to recoup from an extended illness that has kept me out of service for a while. Between starting to feel better and winter finally ending, my outlook and attitude are also improving. I’m starting to catch up on unfinished business. This is a bit late but I ran across a safe a few weeks back. I was unable to fit it from my collection of keys. But I I told the owner I’d like to give you folks a chance to see it and perhaps identify it.It is small (fits in a car seat) and weighs in at around 250-300 pounds. Construction appears to be iron throughout. Keyhole takes a large barrel key.

There are no marks or text anywhere on the box, including the bottom (tipped safe up and looked closely). The safe appears to be held together with large screws, possibly welded to the box. We tried all the barrel keys I had that were close. Most of my keys that fit through the keyhole did not fit over the center post. A couple of keys did fit the center post and turned nearly 180 degrees. It felt like the mechanism was engaged but key was eventually blocked by a ward or some other such obstruction. I did not force thee keys beyond that point but the mechanism did not feel seized i.e. it began to move and did not feel rusted

Safe has an iron ring welded to its top - obviously intended to assist in lifting. This makes me think safe was perhaps designed to be moved frequently. It also appears to be more functional than decorative - everything about it says “basic”

Does anyone here know what this safe is, or how difficult it would be to open (non-destructively). Owner has had safe for 10 years; never opened; most likely empty. He would like to get a working key made. Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

Arcade Al

The portability suggests a military strongbox?

timof5stars

Hmmm, I went to Google Images and entered “military strongbox”. There’s a general similarity, for sure:
[INDENT]
Search results: Google Images(“military strongbox”)
[/INDENT]

Question: Is the complete lack of identifying marks/logos/branding typical of this general class of safes or is it possibly indicative of its age - i.e. that safes built in this general time period frequently
had no branding or other markings identifying the manufacturer????

Arcade Al

timof5stars wrote
Hmmm, I went to Google Images and entered “military strongbox”. There’s a general similarity, for sure:[INDENT]
Search results: Google Images(“military strongbox”)
[/INDENT]

Question: Is the complete lack of identifying marks/logos/branding typical of this general class of safes or is it possibly indicative of its age - i.e. that safes built in this general time period frequently
had no branding or other markings identifying the manufacturer????

From what I’ve seen that wouldn’t be too unusual. Often on more modern ones in the UK the box would be made by a steel fabricator and the lock would be a common MOD/Gov model (usually Chubb).
The manufacturer of the box itself would be on the inside or would not feature at all.

[unknown]

drcwks

Hi…First one that size I have ever seen…. Almost too big for a salesman sample but it could be. The hinge covers..finial/acorns look like the safes BEFORE 1860s..so…I’m guessing mid 1850s….American. It could be an early Burke-Barnes safe. I bet the inside lock or door may be marked. Very unusual size. Wish I had it in my collection :-)

I do have a Burke&Barnes safe lock but that lock is actually a Bramah…the English influence on early American safes.

Hopefully you can find a locksmith that can pick it. You wouldn’t want to damage something that unique…

timof5stars wrote
I finally beginning to recoup from an extended illness that has kept me out of service for a while. Between starting to feel better and winter finally ending, my outlook and attitude are also improving. I’m starting to catch up on unfinished business. This is a bit late but I ran across a safe a few weeks back. I was unable to fit it from my collection of keys. But I I told the owner I’d like to give you folks a chance to see it and perhaps identify it.It is small (fits in a car seat) and weighs in at around 250-300 pounds. Construction appears to be iron throughout. Keyhole takes a large barrel key.

There are no marks or text anywhere on the box, including the bottom (tipped safe up and looked closely). The safe appears to be held together with large screws, possibly welded to the box. We tried all the barrel keys I had that were close. Most of my keys that fit through the keyhole did not fit over the center post. A couple of keys did fit the center post and turned nearly 180 degrees. It felt like the mechanism was engaged but key was eventually blocked by a ward or some other such obstruction. I did not force thee keys beyond that point but the mechanism did not feel seized i.e. it began to move and did not feel rusted

Safe has an iron ring welded to its top - obviously intended to assist in lifting. This makes me think safe was perhaps designed to be moved frequently. It also appears to be more functional than decorative - everything about it says “basic”

Does anyone here know what this safe is, or how difficult it would be to open (non-destructively). Owner has had safe for 10 years; never opened; most likely empty. He would like to get a working key made. Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11574[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]11575[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]11576[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]11577[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]11578[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]11578[/ATTACH]

[unknown]

timof5stars

drcwks,

That is very interesting. I would not have guessed the safe to be that old (but then again, that’s not surprising as I know very little about safes), in searching Google Images for “small antique Burke-Barnes safes lock” I ran across this page:
[INDENT]
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/burke-barnes-fire-proof-cast-iron-77487053 [/INDENT]

If you zoom in on the photo, there are several characteristics that the safe in the photo shares with the safe I am attempting to identify. The keyhole is similar but the text acknowledges that the lock has been modified. Also, the safe in the photo has (had) a nameplate. While the general shape of the door and hinges look very similar, the safe I am inquiring about does not appear to have ever had a nameplate on the front of the door - however it is possible that there was a nameplate that was removed at some point and I’m simply missing the evidence of this. If this was the case, whomever performed this removed all obvious traces of the plate - at least to people like me.

Also, if you look at the 2nd of the series of 3 worthpoint photos, you’ll notice that the left side of that safe has a carrying handle. The handle on the right side appears to be missing. The safe I’m in investigating does not currently have handles and I cannot see evidence that there ever were handle.

Still, the similarities of the Burke-Barnes safes to the one I’m investigating are numerous and you may be on to something here.

Not to get to far off-topic but your suggestion that we may have a Brahma lock on the door is very interesting. I’ve recently been reading about Charles Aubin’s spectacular 44-lock assembly from 1851 known as the Aubin Trophy Lock; at the top of the wedding cake shaped creation, is a huge Brahma key that simultaneously operates all 44 locks. The Brahma key can be seen in this photo:

[INDENT]https://www.pinterest.com/pin/392728029978589138/[/INDENT]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the safe I’m investigating does have a Brahma lock securing the door, having it opened and making a key will require a rare specialist among locksmiths, true?

drcwks

I don’t believe your lock is a Bramah….I just know my Bramah safe lock came from a Burke-Barnes safe. A lot of safe from that time period used more than one type of lock. I don’t think the keyway would be that long if it took a bramah key…and you should be able to see the sliders. The handles on the safe link you posted are indicative of some of the earlier American Key safes. Your safe is the first one I have seen with a handle on top of that time period. It’s amost like someone who worked at a safe company constructed if for their own. Are you sure about the weight? What are the dimensions? Just the handle on top indicates it was made to be somewhat portable. Please post what the insides look like when you get it open.

timof5stars wrote
drcwks,

That is very interesting. I would not have guessed the safe to be that old (but then again, that’s not surprising as I know very little about safes), in searching Google Images for “small antique Burke-Barnes safes lock” I ran across this page:[INDENT]
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/burke-barnes-fire-proof-cast-iron-77487053 [/INDENT]

If you zoom in on the photo, there are several characteristics that the safe in the photo shares with the safe I am attempting to identify. The keyhole is similar but the text acknowledges that the lock has been modified. Also, the safe in the photo has (had) a nameplate. While the general shape of the door and hinges look very similar, the safe I am inquiring about does not appear to have ever had a nameplate on the front of the door - however it is possible that there was a nameplate that was removed at some point and I’m simply missing the evidence of this. If this was the case, whomever performed this removed all obvious traces of the plate - at least to people like me.

Also, if you look at the 2nd of the series of 3 worthpoint photos, you’ll notice that the left side of that safe has a carrying handle. The handle on the right side appears to be missing. The safe I’m in investigating does not currently have handles and I cannot see evidence that there ever were handle.

Still, the similarities of the Burke-Barnes safes to the one I’m investigating are numerous and you may be on to something here.

Not to get to far off-topic but your suggestion that we may have a Brahma lock on the door is very interesting. I’ve recently been reading about Charles Aubin’s spectacular 44-lock assembly from 1851 known as the Aubin Trophy Lock; at the top of the wedding cake shaped creation, is a huge Brahma key that simultaneously operates all 44 locks. The Brahma key can be seen in this photo:
[INDENT]https://www.pinterest.com/pin/392728029978589138/[/INDENT]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the safe I’m investigating does have a Brahma lock securing the door, having it opened and making a key will require a rare specialist among locksmiths, true?

[unknown]

Arcade Al

Nope I echo that, not a Bramah. The keyhole is the wrong shape.
I think some confusion has arisen along the way.