Help ID large floor safe?

UltimatE

I’m looking at buying an old armoire-sized safe for use as a firearm/general purpose safe. It looks like it used to have an oval-shaped badge at the top center that has since fallen off. I can’t find any other markings on the safe, top, sides, or front. It does use a Sargent and Greenleaf locking mechanism, if that’s any help.

Any ideas as to the make, vintage, etc? I can get better pictures, or look in certain areas if anyone has any ideas. Combination is unknown, so I’d also like to know if it would be worth it to pay the extra on top of purchase cost for a smith to open and change the combo, or just look for another safe. If its truly an OLD safe and can be salvaged, I’d be much more interested in buying it and fronting the smith costs.

Sorry for the blurry second picture, I can get better pictures if needed.

Dean Nickel

Old record safe. It has an asbestos fill. It is a sheet metal skin with no armor to speak of. It was intended to protect stuff against a fire. I have that container as well. Mine was made by the Hall company around 1920-30 and looks like yours but the paint on mine is a bit better. I replaced the lock…. that is when I found out about the asbestos. If you just want to have a container to keep hands around the house out then it is good. If you want breakin protection don’t expect too much as I could open one of these with a hatchet like a tin can (and a breathing mask).

UltimatE

Aww, that’s not exactly what I didn’t want to hear haha. I was hoping for a rare, good find. I’ll keep looking since it has no armor and filled with asbestos. Thanks for the information.

UltimatE

How common is Asbestos in old safe construction? Looking at a Marvin safe now, and if its a true Marvin, the newest it could be is 1892.

Thanks,
-Matt.

Dean Nickel

The evil A isn’t bad UNLESS you have it not contained. So if it is in the safe wall and is NOT exposed to the outside it is fine. So unless you plan to modify a safe most that have it will not be a problem. If you are like me and take procedures with a mask and a controlled environment with the right training, you just don’t open the walls of a safe. There are hundreds if not thousands of different safes out there with asbestos. Just like fire doors. Hard to say what ones are and are not using it being until the mid 1970s it was use in A LOT of stuff from paint all the way to concrete.

UltimatE

I ended up buying up a Marvin safe off eBay. Planning to pick it up next weekend. Dimensions are approximately 32″×42″×72″ outside, 22″×32″×62″ inside. Any guesses to its weight? Vintage? Assuming its a Marvin, and not a Herring-Hall-Marvin, its age is somewhere between 1832-1892. Can’t wait to get it home and check it out.

I’m thinking about taking out parts or re-arranging the inside to fit long guns on one side. If I do a restore on it, would changing the interior significantly change its value?

Sorry for all the questions, I’m completely new to vintage safes, but extremely interested in historic items.

Doug MacQueen

Matt, changing the interior isn’t going to reduce the value. Dating the safe can be done by inspecting the lock installed, but at a glance i would say 1870’s-80’s. A guesstimate of 2 tons, possibly more, at least will give you an idea. Not a job for amateurs with a pick up truck. Doug

Dean Nickel

I would agree to the 1870-1900 time frame. Also I agree with it being HEAVY.

One note: The black box on the back of the door…. be careful with that. I think it might be a booby trap/teargas trap or some such. I would carefully remove/inspect it before you move the safe. I am reasonable sure that wasn’t OEM.

Tom Gordon

if the outer doors were fire proofing were the inner doors not meant to be burglar resisting? (Or in the parlance of the day “burglar proof”)

Dean Nickel

Were the inner doors just like a day gate in a safe form?

Tom Gordon

Unless it was a one off safe, herring had a safe made to challenge Chatwood at the Paris Exhibition in 1867, which had a burglar resistant inner door that took them 3 ¾ hours to open (and half an hour for the outer safe). Was that just the cheating Americans being naughty Dean? :-)

Doug MacQueen

Yes Tom, it was the naughty Americans caught cheating. Actually more like a testament to the literacy rate of the English lock and safe trade, as this bankers safe is from the 1866 Herring catalog. Doug

Tom Gordon

Hmmm
I doubt it would have taken them 3 and ¾ hours to open that inner door.
Chatwood must have been aware that the substituted safe was one with inner and outer doors. The naughty cheaty bit was that they deliberately supplied him with the wrong technical drawings and then broke the terms of the challenge with the tools they used and then subverted the froggie umpire (damn those froggies- we didn’t have a 100 years war with them for nothing).
But anyway, I forgive you :-) and there were obviously versions made with semi secure inner doors and also those with day locking type inner doors.

UltimatE

Now I’m bummed. The seller told me the weight was around 1,500lbs… Which would have been no problem for a 3000lbs capacity utility trailer and a pick up truck… But if its over 4,000lbs, there’s no way I can bring it back to Mass. I’ve looked into renting a u-haul, but their ramps aren’t wide enough, nor are their aluminum trailers strong enough.

One option I am looking into is a hydraulic bed lift trailer made for heavy equipment. I can rent one locally for $75/day. It has a 3.5T capacity and gets really close to the ground. I could probably lower the trailer to the ground, push it up the ramp, and strap it down with 8 straps meant for cars. (or more, I have a lot). With something like that I think I could get the safe home pretty easily. No?

Dean Nickel

If the sides are not layered steel then yes it could be 1500-2000 lb. It still is going to be a many person job to move and do so safely.

I would go for the lowboy trailer for sure as you don’t have to tip it as much to load. Also you are then sure you will be able to move it…. then is the question of manpower. On a safe that size we use a min of two guys and moving equipment meant for safes.