Please help I.D. this safe.

matty

Hello,
I would like to find out what this safe looks like in original condition, I have been told it is a Silas Herring or Urban McNeil approx.1840? But I can’t find any photos, I’m not trying to sell it, I just like it and want to make it look good, it doesn’t have the inner doors, so I need to fabricate a pair.

So here is some pics, (hopefully) since taking the pictures I have sanded off one of the western paintings to reveal the fruit basket with the red bird diving toward it, (with 320 grit on a d.a.) when I have the time I was planning to do the outside, also I have wire brushed the leafing around the outside, and the base color is red?

The lock looks similar to a Brahma circa 1784? seven blades, with a barrel/bit key?

The door jam area is cast iron, the door handles are brass, with “298” stamped in them?

Another thing is that the wheels are not mounted perfectly square, so maybe from England?

I have spent a lot of time searching for a picture of this thing, I really appreciate anything you have to say! Thanks, Matt.

matty

Hi again,
The dimensions are, 49″ inches High (43 without the wheels and L brackets), 36 and ¾″ Wide, 28″ Deep.

And I’ll try to get the fruit basket pic on, Thanks again!

Doug MacQueen

Matty, that is an odd one if the keylock was original to the outer door. It was obviously designed to replace a large combination lock. The basic style of the safe is typical of the safes coming out of Cincinnati, OH in the 1870’s-80’s. The earlier makers include Jos. Hall, MacNeale Urban, Diebold Kienzle and Mosler Bahmann. My first guess was Jos. Hall. But a study of the possible combination locks that would match the overall shape and size of the keylock case might lead to the maker. And on that basis I would lean toward Diebold Kienzle. Doug

matty

Hi,

Thanks so much for the info, I will start looking for those names!

The lock looked very original to this, when I broke out the mortar to remove it, it all looked very uniform? and the bolts in the picture are very crooked, like hand made?

And I made the key in the previous picture out of three keys.

p.s. I just found more pictures, the key in this one is a blank, a very nice and helpful man at a local lock and safe shop gave me a bunch of blanks!

Thanks so much again! Matt.

matty

Hi,
So, the key lock could have been changed from a combo. lock? Sorry I am a little bit absent minded right now, my Dad and Sister both just passed away.

I forgot about the extra bolt holes under the back panel, that “do” have mortar in them? maybe at some point it was totally taken out for repair and re-poured?

Also, from all the reading I have been doing, I see what looks like the “acorns” on the hinges are removable, these look to be one piece castings?

Also, a safe dealer told me to take off the back cover to find information, after removing the cover on the very rear of the safe, I called him back and said to him, “there is nothing back there except cement?” (and he responded, "there’s a cover on the back!?)
(he meant of the door…)

What do you think the chances are of finding a picture of an original one like this? It’s just that it has the leafing around the edges, the slats, with the waves and the four squares! It’s just such a menagerie of lines to come up with a good paint scheme???

well here is some more pics…(ground down bolts near lock area, internal mechanism,
back cover, hinge (maybe can see the roughness of the casting?) the extra bolt holes under the back panel)((and I was trying dark red on the leafing?))

Thank you very much Doug!

Matt.

NatSafeMatt

Hey Matt…sorry to hear of your loss. Perhaps this safe project will help in keeping your mind busy. The acorns should just un-screw. They are usually cast…but with threads. They have prob. been in there forever…so it may be hard to screw them out. I have a friend that can custom make them if need be. PM me and I will give you my phone number…always interested in talking to other antique safe people. There are many knowledgeable people that frequently visit this site…I’m sure you will find much info. about your safe. Take care and God bless.

Matt

matty

Hi Again!

Yes, this safe is one of the last things I talked to my Dad about, thanks for your kind words! I have never owned a safe, I have always just collected keys, and made them.
(cut them to fit)

About the acorns though, I have several years experience with automotive engines and fabricating with steel, I can see the casting line on the acorn and continue on across the main body of the hinge?

Although, the right door has shims between the two hinge halves, the left side doesn’t, but both left door hinges do have what appear to be mold lines that look like they may unscrew, but I filed them, and I am fairly sure they are one piece also?

(I wire brushed and sand blasted one of the hinges in the pic)

Also, the four corners of the doors are broken where they meet the stop pad thingy, that is held on with two screws in the very center (have pics)

And the four stationary bolts, (that engage when doors are closed, are marked with a center punch, 1,2,3,4) (have pic of #4)

Well, I guess that is all the stuff I’ve seen that might mean something? Maybe the right door was blown off, then repaired at some point?

I have read where other people are looking for serial numbers, any ideas where to look for one on this old boat anchor?

Thanks again,

Matt

NatSafeMatt

Sorry I can’t be of help…those close up pictures really show the details of the acorns…they do look like they are all one piece. I have never seen them like this. Only the type that un-screw. Then again, i’ve only been into antique safes now for a couple years. There will be someone who will come along and know exactly what this safe is. Check out the antique safe collector Guy Zani…he’s prob. seen it all. Let me know if ever there is a time you need the safe pinstriped or gold leafed. In the mean time…keep serching the internet…search antique safe on E-bay every once in a while (if you haven’t already). Take care.

Doug MacQueen

Matty, the lack of ready access to the lock and the nonremovable hinge caps forces me to rethink my first post. Now I am thinking yours may be 1860’s vintage. I will stick with CIncy as the makers location. Only 3 makers existed during most of that decade, Diebold Bahmann, Dodds, MacNeale & Urban and the Jos. L Hall Safe Co. I have found Bramah type locks on the inner doors of both Hall and MacNeale & Uban safes. And these were identical locks with large cast iron cases somewhat like yours. But Diebold was the only one not making their own locks as far as I know during this period so I will stick with Diebold Bahmann. I do have a picture of another unknown smaller safe which also uses a Bramah type outer door lock and has fancy cast iron trim. When I find it I will post pics. Unfortunately none of the paneled safes that I have pictures of have the original paint. Doug Dodds, MacNeale & Urban preceded MacNeale Urban

matty

Yes, I do believe that is the date another person told me, I might have said 1840 by mistake, sorry.

I did see a Diebold the other day with the same style holes for the inner door locks and hinges. I keep getting confused when seeing Mosler-Brahman and Diebold-Brahman?

Due to the decorative features of this one, could you say anything about who would be more likely to order this model? i.e. Hotel, Railroad, Store, Bank?

I would be very grateful if you could post any pics of one like this, whether original or not! I have a few ideas about the paint scheme, but it would be nice just to see another one!

Thanks so much,
Matt.

Doug MacQueen

Yours is the same safe posted sometime earlier by Tom Gordon isn’t it? I thought something seemed familiar. Similarities among these early Cincy safes is not co-incidental. Several of the employees moved from from one company to the next. And then you have Hall and Dodds (MacNeale Urban) as partners for a while as well as Bahmann and Mosler were earlier with Diebold. Yours is a typical business safe for fire and giving some burglary protection, unlikely used in a bank. If I find a painted safe I will post it Doug

matty

Hi,
I have only posted this safe at one other site, it would only allow one picture to be posted, that was some time ago. (and I got no response on it)

I have never seen one like this, after you said Diebold-Brahman I found one that a guy posted on another forum that looks like it has the same hardware for the inner doors?
(but it is a newer model, the outside is totally different)

I have spent a lot of time reading about safes an trying to find a pic of one like this…This one came from a gun dealer in the San Francisco area, around 1940 to 1970?

Thanks for the history of the safe builders names, now I am starting to understand?

I have mostly dealt with automobiles, and they always seem to have a make, model, and year…

I agree about the strong box type of thing too, and a key would allow faster access, to retrieve personal paperwork, and not money or gold? maybe that is why all our corners of the doors are broken? I was thinking that somewhere along the line some kids were repeatedly slamming the doors just playing around with it?

Thanks in advance again if you could post a pic of one like this!!!

Matt.

matty

Hi,
I seen the other posting in the lock section, like I said previously, I was taking care of my Dad from last December till around August, I sent a few pics around during that time?(I really don’t remember much)

That pic is from when I had the lock disassembled to make a key for it, I will take it apart again and post better pics. but from reading the other thread, they seem to be thinking of England maker too?

All the lock and bolt mechanism looks very crude, but it all moves very smoothly, all the parts to it have been marked with four center punch dots, (cylinder, lock ring halves, bolt, and the main body?)

Thanks again!
Matt.

Doug MacQueen

Matty does this cast trim look the same as yours. This safe also uses a Bramah type lock on the outer door and it as yet is still in my “unknown” files of safe pictures. Doug

matty

Yours has leafing on the door panels as well!!! The acorns are shorter? Another thing, what is the T handle length? I have noticed that all the ones I’ve seen that are close to mine have longer T handles?

Inner door pics?

So, it’s still unknown to you, what that thing is? At the beginning of production, I guess it wasn’t like they could just grab their kodak and snap a few for the scrap books….
(that’s why I asked about hotels or what other line of historical places where a safe like this could be in the background pic.(where it would have been preserved))

So, it’s ones like these that could have survived the fires, that gave Diebold such a good reputation? (mine was in at least one fire, the doors were off, left one lying with the inside flat on the ground, that’s what preserved the paintings on the back panel of that door)

Many Thanks Doug!
Matt.

Doug MacQueen

Matty does the leafing look exactly the same? This one isnt mine. It has a round pull knob not a T handle. Doug

matty

It sure does to me, like an oak leaf? I didn’t find any silver so I sprayed that corner of mine with sand stone? Looks like the one in your pic has been blasted? It seems the attaching screw is visible? On mine the screws are barely visible from being filled in by paint.

Thanks again,
Matt.

Doug MacQueen

And the unusual ring on the hinge cap is also on both safes. I think there they are the same maker but I guess that doesn’t help much at this point huh? Doug

Doug MacQueen

Two more Bramah locks found on safes that I have to make keys for. One is the inner door of a MacNeale Urban and the other is another unknown. I have found more safes with the leaf castings but the safes are totally different than yours. It is possible that a foundry sold this stuff to different safe companies Doug

matty

Thanks Doug!

I have been very busy, I was thinking of taking the lock apart again and posting pictures of the slides(or blades?) inside the lock, they look different than others I’ve seen? maybe that might mean something, or someone might want the pics for the future for some reason?

I have seen a few of the double door Moslers that are almost the same, except the rope trim, and the flat doors…

I’ll just put these pics here again for comparison, mine has the L shape bolt, the main difference.

and another pic I found of a paneled safe?

Thanks again,
Matt.