where is this from?

ptross

Has anyone seen a trunk/chest lock like this? This is a reproduction, but I have recently seen an original that dates from 1600. It has the typical “crab” lock mechanism but enclosed in an iron case. Any idea of where it was made or if there are others like it?
Peter

Brian Morland MLA Hon

Do you have a picture or a link of the one you’ve seen?

This is the one in our collection although we have never been able to establish its provenance.

Adrian Weber

Have you ever tried contacting the curators from the Hans Shell collection or the ones from the lock museum in Velbert?
They may know more about it.

ptross

Thanks for the suggestions. Being new to this group, I’m not familiar with the various museums that might have material pertaining to these locks. Do you have any specific contact information?
I’ll try to post a photo of the original, though it is an excavated piece and in very poor condition.
Peter

Brian Denyer

Yes, I have an original hand made one similar to this but with a triangular taper.
Very large and was used fior a trunk.

Gerry

i am not a lockcollector,
the attached lock is the only i have got,
it works similar to yours
late 18.th century, ca. 1780

Brian Denyer

Gerry this is a nice lock with the key too.
Are the Case Wards taken out ?
Many times I find that, someone in times long gone,removes the Case Wards so that mant keys will operate the mechanisn.
It looks like you have an original key?

Brian………………

ptross

Gerry,
thanks for posting photos of your lock. I have examined a number of these, and you’e right, the mechanism is very similar. the aspect that I’m curious about is that my lock is enclosed in an iron case while yours is made with partly exposed works. It’s the variation with the iron case that I’m having a difficult time tracking down. The exposed works variation are much more common.
Anyone else have any suggestions?
Peter

Doug MacQueen

Peter, can’t help you with specifics on your lock, but from what I’ve seen the basic mechanism style saw widespread use. And generally speaking, an open case lock often indicates a mortised mounting while a full case, surface mounting. Certainly not a hard and fast rule, but that may be the only reason for the difference in the locks your seeing. Doug

ptross

Doug,
while you’re correct about some locks being mounted differently depending on cased construction or not, in this instance there is no difference in mounting. Both the open and cased versions are surface mounted inside the trunk. Almost all surviving examples of crab lock mechanisms are open, which is why I’m trying to find out more about the cased example I have. It seems to be extremely rare.
Peter

Doug MacQueen

Maybe I am misunderstanding the term crablock. Is it merely opposed hook bolts? Doug

ptross

Doug, yes, that’s the term I usually see for what you describe, though there may be a better name for them. I’d be happy to learn better terminology.
Peter

Doug MacQueen

Again, this is just general information gained from experience in the trade. Not so important on passage doors but it is on chests and safes with surface mounted locks (and boltworks), enclosing the lock mechanism in a case prevents accidental jamming of the parts by anything held inside. Of course, the design of the lock as well as what is held within has a bearing on how important enclosure might be. A locksmith’s chest from the 1600’s would contain lots of small parts and tools which could easily foul the lock, if the mechanism were exposed. Regarding the terminology, I can’t do any better than hook bolt. Older bank vaults with sliding grill gates used them. In some of these older chest locks, I see as many as 4 hook bolts used, sometimes tapered, sometimes not. It appears that the “crablock” style is one of the simpler 2 bolt types where the barbed catch would often be anchor shaped. Doug

Brian Denyer

Great explanation Doug !

Brian ……………………….

Doug MacQueen

Thanks Brian, but probably not all that helpful I have done some searching around and found 3 Northern Italian 1600’s locks in an Italian auction website. One of the things that I find very interesting is the artistic spring designs used in many pre-1800’s locks. With the “crab Lock” style, the very simple and effective design of a partial ring makes it easy to make. But were these springs made of wrought iron? Also in looking again at Peters lock, the plain jane case design itself makes me think it may have actually been a much later copy of this style lock, possibly even from the 1800’s. Doug

ptross

Doug,
it may not have been quite clear, but in my earlier post I explained that the photo I posted shows a very good copy of an archaeological find; quite precisely dated to 1610 at Jamestown, VA, USA. One of the earliest English settlements in the US. The artifact survived in remarkable shape and it was simple to make a good reproduction with very little guesswork.
as to whether the springs were wrought iron- I don’t know if that question has been answered and have been unwilling to do any destructive testing on the locks in my collection. I have made a reproduction using wrought iron, but wasn’t able to get the spring to work properly. However, my lack of success doesn’t rule out the use of wrought iron in better hands.
Peter

Doug MacQueen

Peter, first off, let me state that I know little about pre- 1800 locks but I am intensely interested in the manufacturing methods and the metals used. I have been overwhelmed by the workmanship seen in the many examples found in European collections. However, I tend to forget there would have been a big difference in the high end market seen in these collections and the purely practical locks that were made. That is not to say that I don’t respect the work you have done on the replica. I have only recently started doing some blacksmithing and know full well the skill required to make such a lock by hand. Assuming the Jamestown lock was English made and not on the Continent, that might account for the difference you have found in case styles. Regarding the wrought iron springs, in my limited experience in working with wrought iron found on early 1800’s hobnail safes, it was surprisingly malleable. I believe that the springs would have been made of a more resilient carbon steel although harder to work. Doug

Richard Phillips

ptross wrote
Has anyone seen a trunk/chest lock like this? This is a reproduction, but I have recently seen an original that dates from 1600. It has the typical “crab” lock mechanism but enclosed in an iron case. Any idea of where it was made or if there are others like it?
Peter

Northern Europe (usually Germany), or Pennsylvania, 17C onwards. There was a book for blacksmiths/whitesmiths last century, which included some lock patterns, and some modern craft blacksmiths have used these patterns. I don’t have a copy so I can’t now say what is in it but the style looks like modern craftsmanship.

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Doug MacQueen

I have recently come across another source of info regarding steel making during the 1600’s. Joseph Moxon put out a book in the later 1600’s describing the design and use of lathes during the period. Mention is made of hardening and tempering steel. Not to be confused with case hardening, which is also mentioned. So it can safely be said a higher level of carbon steel was used in the 1600’s for at least some springs, edged weapons tools etc.
It is also mentioned that the scimitars made of Damacus steel were better than the state of art swords of Europe. I am currently making a key for a crablock, and just bought Peter Ross’s very nice video on making a crablock. He mentions that he had to use hi carbon steel for the spring. Close inspection reveals almost no movement of the spring as the lock is opened/ closed, just a bit of preload.

Richard Phillips

Brian Morland wrote
Do you have a picture or a link of the one you’ve seen?

This is the one in our collection although we have never been able to establish its provenance.

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Brian, that looks to me from the picture like cast iron?? Is it really
? If so, suggests 18C?

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