Phillips & Son + E Cotterill

simoncpage

Bought a Phillips and Son padlock which basically is an E Cotterill key and padlock just without the E Cotterill name. I have seen Phillips and Son safes before with E Cotterill locks and keys in their name? Any info on this is appreciated.

I notice that the last couple of posts I’ve not had any replies so not sure if this forum is getting read or not but thought I would try again. Thanks

safeman

simoncpage wrote
Bought a Phillips and Son padlock which basically is an E Cotterill key and padlock just without the E Cotterill name. I have seen Phillips and Son safes before with E Cotterill locks and keys in their name? Any info on this is appreciated.

I notice that the last couple of posts I’ve not had any replies so not sure if this forum is getting read or not but thought I would try again. Thanks

Well, there’s at least one avid reader.

Cotterill safes, like hen’s teeth, are difficult to find. Although he published price lists and catalogues for ‘his’ safes I have always believed that he had them ‘made-out’ which is substantiated to a degree that two photos I have of his safes have identical hinge pivits to Birmingham and Whitfield products.

Phillips safes are most often locked by Cotterill or Chubb Detector till locks so perhaps the there was enough turnover to justify being provided with an anonymous padlock.

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

A picture would be of great help and speak a thousand words - is the radial slider climax detector type ?

simoncpage

Here you go…

Huw Eastwood

Well that’s a cracking padlock and totally unexpected. It’s not the radial slider climax type I was expecting it to be, but it’s even stranger being the first of the ACME type that followed later.

Was all ready to say that Cotterill’s are always marked as such and that it’s the generic copies that are anonymous without makers name, but that being a Cotterill ACME patent type but signed Phillips & Son makes it a mystery to me.

FWIW, all of the climax detectors we saw on Phillips’ safes were only ever the generic copies and not Cotterill’s signed locks. Their escutcheons would reference the climax detector patent but IIRC never use Cotterill’s name, but seeing your padlock there suggests a possible tie-up of some sort between the two unless ACME patents had expired and that too was copied.

simoncpage

Thanks Huw I do love a good mystery. I guess this thread should really be in the padlock section.

Richard Phillips

Cotterill’s patent had expired by the 1930s, when Cotterill ceased trading. The Cotterill padlock turret shape was respected enough that some cheap makers copied it; Maybe Philips tried copying the real thing? but the 1930s would not have been a good time for a success in the marketplace … .

Tom Gordon

safeman wrote
Well, there’s at least one avid reader.

Cotterill safes, like hen’s teeth, are difficult to find.

I have several early Chatwood branded firesafes which were made by Cotterill, fitted with various non cotterill and non Chatwood locks.

[unknown]

safeman

Tom Gordon wrote
I have several early Chatwood branded firesafes which were made by Cotterill, fitted with various non cotterill and non Chatwood locks.

Tom, this is indeed surprising as I never believed that Cotterill actually manufactured safes. An early model shows identical hinges to those used by Whitfield at one time and identical to Milners which were used in their List 2 safes..

This leads me to think that they may also have acquired safes from Chatwood. To substantiate this I have attached a copy of a page illustrating their List No.12 which bears the following identical features to the Chatwood List 2 of 1871.

Apart from incorporating the Chatwood ‘T’ frame and lockcase the ‘curvilinear’ feature is also shown round the rebate. I would be interested to know what locks are fitted.

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

There is a big standard lock made by Parnell on one.
The tiny writing which says “Cotterill” is there but so small and subtle that it is difficult to take a picture of

Tom Gordon

Tom Gordon wrote
There is a big standard lock made by Parnell on one.
The tiny writing which says “Cotterill” is there but so small and subtle that it is difficult to take a picture of

And a couple of other pictures

[unknown]

Paul Prescott

In the archives of the Chubb Australian company I have seen documentation that confirms that at least some of the Chubb Commerce safes (of the 1900 vintage) where made by Cotterill.

safeman

oldlock wrote
In the archives of the Chubb Australian company I have seen documentation that confirms that at least some of the Chubb Commerce safes (of the 1900 vintage) where made by Cotterill.

Hello Paul,
I’ve been revisiting my archives to see where I may have been mistaken in believing that Edwin Cotterill did not actually manufacture safes.
What I find is that the name Cotterill was only the flag at the top of the mast. During the 1870’s and 80’s the company appears to have been under the leadership of Henry Fear as it was he who entered into the many disputes and challenges of the day, all in defense of the unpickability of the Climax Lock.
Then I find that at one time the Proprietor of the Cotterill Company was George Titterton, the safe maker. I cannot sort out the respective dates.
This leaves me to still believe that all the safes under the Cotterill badge were out-sourced.
I also found that the agent for Cotterill in AU was an R W Warrell of Melbourne.
Regards …. John.

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

safeman wrote

the name Cotterill was only the flag at the top of the mast. at one time the Proprietor of the Cotterill Company was George Titterton.
This leaves me to still believe that all the safes under the Cotterill badge were out-sourced.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22631[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]22632[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]22633[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
I am afraid that I do not understand the logic.
most of these large manufacturers made a variety of products from shells during wartime to sewing machines and pumps (Chatwood) and I have seen clay pipe moulds by Cotterill as well as the sawdust Chatwood firesafes.
The thing about the Chatwood safes is that they did not have Cotterill locks or branding and almost hid the name on the plaque which is suggesting they made the safe but took the flag down, folded it and had almost put it in a drawer.

[unknown]

Paul Prescott

Here’s an example of a document from the Australian archive.

safeman

Tom Gordon wrote

I am afraid that I do not understand the logic.

I have attached another example of the great similarity between some Cotterill and Chatwood safes in the 1880’s when Henry Fear was still in control.

This shows the Chatwood Patented curvilinear rebate as before, has more or less the same body “T” frame and door specification as the Chatwood List 3 “Strong Holdfast” and also the anti-wedging studs on the door engaging with slots in the inner body. Chatwood Patent #3265 of 1866.
The feature on the opposite page is yet another example of Mr Fear’s many confrontations with his competitors.

Having a fully bent body suggests this is an early 20th Century model of a strength equivalent to the Chatwood List 2 or Merchant Quality with a ¼“ body and ½” door plate. Although the coach painted lining on the body and door looks very Chatwood, the serial number painted on the top pivot almost clinches it. George Titterton now in charge.

I believe the Company disappeared off the scene around 1930.

[unknown]

Tom Gordon

safeman wrote
Tom Gordon wrote

I am afraid that I do not understand the logic.

I have attached another example of the great similarity between some Cotterill and Chatwood safes in the 1880’s when Henry Fear was still in control.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22635[/ATTACH] This shows the Chatwood Patented curvilinear rebate as before, has more or less the same body “T” frame and door specification as the Chatwood List 3 “Strong Holdfast” and also the anti-wedging studs on the door engaging with slots in the inner body. Chatwood Patent #3265 of 1866.
The feature on the opposite page is yet another example of Mr Fear’s many confrontations with his competitors.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22636[/ATTACH] Having a fully bent body suggests this is an early 20th Century model of a strength equivalent to the Chatwood List 2 or Merchant Quality with a ¼“ body and ½” door plate. Although the coach painted lining on the body and door looks very Chatwood, the serial number painted on the top pivot almost clinches it. George Titterton now in charge.

I believe the Company disappeared off the scene around 1930.

It must be remembered that the Chatwood fire resisters were probably made before Chatwood actually made safes. Over the years there were many partnerships in the lock and safe trade and staff with itchy feet and I would imagine that it was to every bodies benefit to sometimes share manufacturing

[unknown] [unknown]

safeman

Tom Gordon wrote
safeman wrote
It must be remembered that the Chatwood fire resisters were probably made before Chatwood actually made safes. Over the years there were many partnerships in the lock and safe trade and staff with itchy feet and I would imagine that it was to every bodies benefit to sometimes share manufacturing

Tom, you’re dead right there as in the case of Chatwood’s partner William Dawes who left him for George Price in 1862 and his lock expert Robert Parkin who disappeared a few years later.
Sharing manufacturing as you also say was prevalent. John Tann out-sourced about 50 List 2a safes to meet a large overseas order to Wastell Bros. also East London. Even many of the light doors in the London Silver Vaults were made out by Hobbs Hart to save disrupting normal production.

I was wondering about your Resistor on which the lockcase/chamber appears to be attached by concealed side screwing unlike most if not all other makes bolted on from the back. Surprising to see Chatwood using the “safe bind, safe find” on their plate like Whitfield.

You may already have seen the attached Chatwood & Dawes page. I believe the name stuck for a couple of years after he left. Too mean to have new Lists prepared ?

The Advert is marked 1860 I think.

Good to have someone to ‘talk’ to. Quiet here isn’t it? (Just spotted unintentional Aubin/Chatwood lock Attached Thumbnail which won’t delete..)

[unknown] [unknown]

Tom Gordon

safeman wrote
Tom Gordon wrote
Tom, you’re dead right there as in the case of Chatwood’s partner William Dawes who left him for George Price in 1862 and his lock expert Robert Parkin who disappeared a few years later.
Sharing manufacturing as you also say was prevalent. John Tann out-sourced about 50 List 2a safes to meet a large overseas order to Wastell Bros. also East London. Even many of the light doors in the London Silver Vaults were made out by Hobbs Hart to save disrupting normal production.

I was wondering about your Resistor on which the lockcase/chamber appears to be attached by concealed side screwing unlike most if not all other makes bolted on from the back. Surprising to see Chatwood using the “safe bind, safe find” on their plate like Whitfield.

You may already have seen the attached Chatwood & Dawes page. I believe the name stuck for a couple of years after he left. Too mean to have new Lists prepared ?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22637[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]22639[/ATTACH] The Advert is marked 1860 I think.

Good to have someone to ‘talk’ to. Quiet here isn’t it? (Just spotted unintentional Aubin/Chatwood lock Attached Thumbnail which won’t delete..)

Samuels first patent was 1860 so the advert is after that. They called the lock (in the advert) “Paragon”, but that was the name of the sewing machine which from memory was patented in 1866

[unknown] [unknown]

safeman

Tom Gordon wrote
safeman wrote
Samuels first patent was 1860 so the advert is after that. They called the lock (in the advert) “Paragon”, but that was the name of the sewing machine which from memory was patented in 1866

Thanks Tom.

Do you remember the Chatwood escutcheon that I sent you many years ago, Well I just came across one in my archive fitted to a chest to which it seems well suited. List 1. ?

[unknown] [unknown]