Is it a Mappin

Warren63

Hi all, I acquired some Whitfield safe keys and two in particular urged me to find out more. The keys were all Whitfield safe keys so I am presuming the wire bow is one also, there is a number on the shaft and I was wondering if this is an extremely old one compared to the others because I have never came across another with the wire bow on a Whitfield key? The other key has an extra projection for four more sliders coming out of the end and pictures I have seen seem to suggest this is a mappins key and I wondered if anyone could confirm this. As I have said before I am a collector who has very limited knowledge and any help that more experienced members can give is greatly appreciated. Big thanks.

Paul Prescott

Re the wire bow, back then it may have been an option, however it’s more likely it’s a contemporary duplicate.

The double stack key is nice, there are far more keys around than locks ! It is mappins patent. Different to cotterill and bramah. Quite a pain to make keys for and they don’t tend to wear well in the examples I’ve worked on.

Warren63

oldlock wrote
Re the wire bow, back then it may have been an option, however it’s more likely it’s a contemporary duplicate.

The double stack key is nice, there are far more keys around than locks ! It is mappins patent. Different to cotterill and bramah. Quite a pain to make keys for and they don’t tend to wear well in the examples I’ve worked on.

Thanks once again Oldlock, it does look worn on the tip of the stack key end and more so than the usual part of the key as you stated. Did you ever come across any of the 18 slider locks mentioned in the Gazetteer or were they extremely rare? Were the early Whitfield keys actually stamped Mappins and were the Cotterill keys stamped with Whitfields name also or where they just a climax detector key without the Whitfield name? Sorry if I’m becoming a proverbial pain in the butt, I just can’t get hold of this information anywhere on the internet or in any books I know of. Big THANKS

[unknown]

Huw Eastwood

Hi warren- first of all congrats on all those keys! They are nice examples- the Mappins is great and I haven’t seen a wire bow Climax/Whitfield type before- more on that one later.

Oldlock will know far more than me, but having had countless Climax, Whitfield’s and Cotterill’s pass through my hands I have to admit to never having a Mappin’s, so I’m going to pass totally on those.

I agree with oldlock on the wear aspects though- Bramah nailed it with the vertical sliders being pushed down by the key. All the others with radial sliders being pushed radially outwards (by the key) were never reliable locks- I’ve mentioned this before but they were notorious for sliders cracking over the slots and since each slider was individually sprung, the compression springs were small and prone to squashing and breaking midway. 25 years ago I used to hand make keys, turn new drill pins and hand file new sliders etc. The Late Great John Rattue ‘Spring Man’ was the only source we knew for springs, and with a new set of those I gave many a new lease of life. These days the labour alone would be many times what the lock or safe is worth and few would be prepared to pay. Seeing the smaller stepped extension on the end of the Mappins keys means I can only imagine what they were like..

Sorry I can’t answer all your questions but with regard to locks bearing just ‘climax detector’ there were many which copied and used the principle- in the 1980s there were hundreds of booming Working Mens Clubs here in the South Wales ‘coal’ valleys, and I used to see a lot of unmarked safes fitted with these locks. Usually very basic cast cylinders with sliders and with no actual ‘detector’ at all. I think from memory that Phillip’s may have been one of the few safes that used them and was brave enough to mark their name on a plaque, but I might be wrong and Phillip’s might have used a Cotterill. Most of the unnamed safes were typical square cornered construction with moulding on the door, and a fancy cast brass hexagonal knob handle. I think some of the bottom end British makers simply saw them as something different to fit and market, accompanied by the usual tongue in cheek claims of pick resistance and security.

Your wire bow is a nice key, and like oldlock said it could well be a replacement copy. I’ve never seen a wire bow Climax type, but I still have quite a few antique blanks for them and for Bramah’s, so this one’s got me curious!

All I can add is that the Climax blanks always seem to have the stepped stem and distinctive arch shaped bow, scalloped at the base where it joins the stem- bit like a shell shape, whereas all the Bramah types I have are straight stem and wire bow. That’s not to say that you couldn’t use a straight stem wire bow blank, turn it down to ‘step’ it, and then re-turn the fluting etc, but it wouldn’t be the most straightforward option to take. Any such key once aged by 40 or 50 years would certainly be difficult to distinguish. It’s the sort of ‘dodge’ I’d still do myself if I didn’t have an exact match blank, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an unusual original, so case still open on that one?

BTW I still have the Cotterill’s Patent Climax Detector lock, with both original keys, which is also marked Wilson’s Patent…just to confuse things a bit more lol…

Sorry I can’t be of more help. I’m sure someone into all the history and dates can come up with all the rest 🙁nod):

Warren63

MaxVaultage wrote
Hi warren- first of all congrats on all those keys! They are nice examples- the Mappins is great and I haven’t seen a wire bow Climax/Whitfield type before- more on that one later.

Oldlock will know far more than me, but having had countless Climax, Whitfield’s and Cotterill’s pass through my hands I have to admit to never having a Mappin’s, so I’m going to pass totally on those.

I agree with oldlock on the weIt’s a lovely lock Max, I like seeing other peoples treasuresaspects though- Bramah nailed it with the vertical sliders being pushed down by the key. All the others with radial sliders being pushed radially outwards (by the key) were never reliable locks- I’ve mentioned this before but they were notorious for sliders cracking over the slots and since each slider was individually sprung, the compression springs were small and prone to squashing and breaking midway. 25 years ago I used to hand make keys, turn new drill pins and hand file new sliders etc. The Late Great John Rattue ‘Spring Man’ was the only source we knew for springs, and with a new set of those I gave many a new lease of life. These days the labour alone would be many times what the lock or safe is worth and few would be prepared to pay. Seeing the smaller stepped extension on the end of the Mappins keys means I can only imagine what they were like..

Sorry I can’t answer all your questions but with regard to locks bearing just ‘climax detector’ there were many which copied and used the principle- in the 1980s there were hundreds of booming Working Mens Clubs here in the South Wales ‘coal’ valleys, and I used to see a lot of unmarked safes fitted with these locks. Usually very basic cast cylinders with sliders and with no actual ‘detector’ at all. I think from memory that Phillip’s may have been one of the few safes that used them and was brave enough to mark their name on a plaque, but I might be wrong and Phillip’s might have used a Cotterill. Most of the unnamed safes were typical square cornered construction with moulding on the door, and a fancy cast brass hexagonal knob handle. I think some of the bottom end British makers simply saw them as something different to fit and market, accompanied by the usual tongue in cheek claims of pick resistance and security.

Your wire bow is a nice key, and like oldlock said it could well be a replacement copy. I’ve never seen a wire bow Climax type, but I still have quite a few antique blanks for them and for Bramah’s, so this one’s got me curious!

All I can add is that the Climax blanks always seem to have the stepped stem and distinctive arch shaped bow, scalloped at the base where it joins the stem- bit like a shell shape, whereas all the Bramah types I have are straight stem and wire bow. That’s not to say that you couldn’t use a straight stem wire bow blank, turn it down to ‘step’ it, and then re-turn the fluting etc, but it wouldn’t be the most straightforward option to take. Any such key once aged by 40 or 50 years would certainly be difficult to distinguish. It’s the sort of ‘dodge’ I’d still do myself if I didn’t have an exact match blank, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an unusual original, so case still open on that one?

BTW I still have the Cotterill’s Patent Climax Detector lock, with both original keys, which is also marked Wilson’s Patent…just to confuse things a bit more lol…

Sorry I can’t be of more help. I’m sure someone into all the history and dates can come up with all the rest 🙁nod):

Thanks for that useful iformation Max, if it wasn’t for yourself and Oldlocks explanations I would still be scratching my head. There’s not anywhere a collector can get this information and it’s truly invaluable. Could you tell me if the keys on your Wilson Cotterill lock are marked with Wilson and Cotterill or is it only on the lock itself?. I’m presuming it’s only on the lock as you can only fit so much info on a small bow. It’s a lovely lock Max, I enjoy looking at other collectors treasures! It’s the next best thing to owning them yourself. Thanks again.

[unknown]

Paul Prescott

Mappins patent locks basically used a bottom ‘pin’ with a top ‘pin’ (for pin say slider (maybe !!)) With the shear line between the inner and outer cores.

They have a single spring wrapped around the core.

I have a lock (somewhere) and will post some pictures when I find it.

Huw Eastwood

Hi Warren yes you got it the keys are only marked E. Cotterill’s Patent Birmingham on one side of the bow and Climax Detector on the other. Then on the lock the front of the cast brass nozzle has tiny Cotterill’s Patent around the keyhole, and then the steel bolt has the E. Cotterill & Co, Wilson’s Patent, Nine Slides, Birmingham.

Yes your’e right there’s not much info out there on any of these and sadly I know very little, but ask away whenever as hopefully between everyone you’ll eventually get the answers.

I’m not big on all the history and dates, that’s never been my thing at all, but I have a lot of experience of working with things. I’m sure someone else will come up with the details of changes and the dates etc

Richard Phillips

Paul Prescott wrote
Mappins patent locks basically used a bottom ‘pin’ with a top ‘pin’ (for pin say slider (maybe !!)) With the shear line between the inner and outer cores.

They have a single spring wrapped around the core.

I have a lock (somewhere) and will post some pictures when I find it.

This came from a safe previously used in a quarry to store explosive, mainly or solely black powder. I received from a retiring ironmonger/locksmith/tinsmith in the 1970s. His Grandfather had taken a shop with basement in a new Victorian shopping parade. As well as ironmongery, there was sheet-metal working, plumbing and gas-fitting, and electical work was added by his father in the 1930s.

Couldn’t remember when the safe was opened, 1960s sometime. There were four: 2xCotterill Climax, 1 Cotterill-Wilson, 1 Mappin.
I have one old forged steel blank now being cut for the Mappin, which is only 4 ‘pin’. I am having great difficulty even pushing the key into the lock. I have one old Cotterill key (sadly not fitting any of my locks), and that also does not push in easily. Indeed not like Bramah.

With my arthritic hip, it is now difficult to do bench work, so this is making slow progress, but thankfully only 4 pins.

[unknown]

Paul Prescott

Never seen a mappins patent with only 4 guards. Odd.

It’s chicken and egg, I find that the key will not want to go in until it’s already cut as the sharp edge on the blank does not move easily over the edge of the bottom guard / slider.

Huw Eastwood

Not to mention there are countless different diameters for both the key shaft and the drill-pin, so first stage is strip the cylinder and check if the blank needs adjustment to the empty cylinder without any internal parts, as it’s never going to push into the lock irrespective of the sliders, if the key shaft is slightly too big or the drill-pin bore too small ! As Paul oldlock says it’s a catch 22 situation as the sliders make the key action difficult at the best of times, so you need to be certain it’s only the sliders resisting the key being pushed in ,and not the fitting of the blank itself.

Often the outside diameter of the key blank needs filing (and often eccentric too) and a rack of 0.1mm increment drills pretty much essential for sizing to drill-pins on old and worn antique locks like these.
Once the blank fits you can then start cutting the key adding a single slider at a time…

The blank you’ve got there is a generic for cotterills and climax detectors with their characteristic bow shape whereas the whitfields and mappin’s usually had plain oval bows, but it will of course work the same as any other blank once correctly sized and cut. Had a box full of those climax blanks at one time !

Your lock shouts Whitfield to me but only 4 sliders is definitely very odd in a larger sized lock like that.

Paul Prescott

Just to avoid confusion - Whitfields safe co used Mappins Patent locks. So they are one & the same …

Syd Waterman

Example of Mappin’s Patent Best 8-slide safe lock as illustrated in Samuel Whitfield’s sales leaflet of 1865.
Walter Sandell Mappin was granted his patent 20[SUP]th[/SUP] January 1862.

Huw Eastwood

That’s a particularly nice one Syd with the Mappin’s patent markings as well as Whitfield’s. Had a lot of those (think I’ve still got 4 or 5) but can’t ever recall seeing any marked Mappin’s, all I’ve got and seen only marked Whitfield & Co, mostly with just the word patent, implying that it’s theirs.
Also can’t ever recall seeing an unmarked anonymous example like Richard’s 4 slide lock.

Unusual, but bearing in mind Whitfield originally used Cotterill’s locks before changing to Mappin’s , I’m wondering if Mappin’s locks were also later churned out in numbers by other makers as was the case with the climax detectors.

Cheers for posting that sales leaflet page- amazing to see those old prices back then and that their top of the range 12 slide double tier lock was exactly double the price of their best 8 slide safe lock -expensive stuff !

Syd Waterman

Thanks Huw for the comments. It’s possible that the inscription “Mappin’s Patent” on the top cap was no longer included when the name was changed to F.Whitfield & Co. by 1875.
I cannot recall coming across another company making “copies” once the patent had expired, unlike the Cotterill lock.
For reference I attach copy of Mappin’s 1862 patent .

Regards Richard’s 4 slide lock I see no evidence that the “Click” feature is present , a key feature of the lock.

Richard Phillips

Unlike Syd’s lock, there is indeed no clicker fitted. The four pins match the positions of four cuts in a Cotterill key I have, which also has three more cuts in the intermediate positions.
The only marking on mine is ‘4664’ on the nozzle. Inside the nozzle is a [hardened iron/steel?] disk.
I am hoping to save myself some work by re-arranging my pins to match the cut key. This is how I have made several Bramah’s operate with old keys, usually needing to make only one or two new sliders. But this lock is proving troublesome to work on. Pieces keep falling out, or sticking. Yale pin tumblers are much easier.
Not sure if this one will ever be done — it just might be left to the next owner to do. I cannot stand at the bench for long, nor can i sit to do this :-( .

Richard Phillips

Much improved health (and finding my lost round TUIT) has enabled me to complete the key, the lock is now working as well as it probably ever did. Not as well as a Bramah. I had to use the only old blank I have. The circular spring around the cylinder does not always immediately restore the drivers when the key is withdrawn. Not good. Surprising that this safe lock is made to shoot upwards. Having a snail cam means that gravity cannot pull down the bolt if the cylinder is unlocked, unlike a lever lock, but still, were not later safe locks mounted to shoot downwards rather than upwards? or at least, sideways?

My new key is the one underneath.

Huw Eastwood

That spring issue is common and easily cured by light fettling as it’s intermittent it’s catching somewhere around the cylinder.
They tend to grab and catch when out of true if twisted slightly up or down to a slight helix shape. Gently reversing it or slightly increasing the closing tension should cure it.
Check for any obvious signs of abrasion and needless to say a final puff of dry powdered graphite works magic in these (and in climax detectors).

From memory most if not all were up shoot locks, whereby gravity still assists the bolt retracting, giving a little smooth assistance on the action of the spiral scroll.
An advantage of down shoot is it eliminates the risk of punch attack from over the top of the safe- up shoot leaves the bolt more vulnerable.

On the basic victorian safes (read tin boxes) typical of these locks you do occasionally see crude anti drill deflectors but are rare on top end stuff and that’s about as far as it goes.
In the days before relockers and AEDs were common and without more sophisticated mechanisms and boltwork there was probably little advantage between up or down shoot other than the vulnerability mentioned.

Richard Phillips

I have a Climax lock just marked ‘CLIMAX DETECTOR’, so disappointed to learn it is not genuine Cotterill; there is no ‘detector’. Raises the question, who did make all these copies? And my Mappin, if that’s not genuine.
And what did E Cotterill & Co. actually make? there are suspicions they did not make their own safes … many of the Climax locks are copies. There are not that many Acme and Cotterill-Wilson locks about. That leaves the turret padlocks. I increasingly regret not having been able to swap a modern Chubb padlock for a Cotterill still in use on a shop shutter in east London in the 1960s :-( . Cotterill were still in business in 1922, claiming to make locks, safes, and car body pressings.

I now have the door and lock pan from a square safe, whose lever lock shoots upwards. Just a drawer lock, with a few more levers (one spring broken). Clueless burglars wrecked the safe (but did succeed in opening it, disgusted to find only papers of no pecuniary value). Eddie Chapman once opened such a safe with a large screwdriver in 1938. I tried jiggling a selection of ordinary cabinet keys in the lock, and behold! gravity dropped the bolt!! I hadn’t believed that would really succeed, though it is the only one I’ve tried.

Huw Eastwood

Richard Phillips wrote
I have a Climax lock just marked ‘CLIMAX DETECTOR’, so disappointed to learn it is not genuine Cotterill; there is no ‘detector’. Raises the question, who did make all these copies? And my Mappin, if that’s not genuine.

Richard, there are numerous threads on here somewhere covering this very subject- the various makers names i discovered on the numerous generic climax detectors i had.
Most sat in boxes considered total unknowns and anonymous, waiting decades for me to make keys and refurb them .
Some of the makers marks were incredibly faint but nevertheless were there and revealed that Henry Fear, Wilson’s, Turner, Morris’, and Wolverson all dabbled in them. Worth a Look very closely for the faintest of markings or lettering on the back of the bolt lath, cylinder back, and inner case you might find something.

Btw, It’s not only the generic copies that didn’t have detectors fitted either, there are some Cotterill’s that sometimes escaped them, plus i have a cotterill clearly marked nine slides when it only has seven..??!!

There are loads of threads on the climax detectors on here - quite a few started by me as i worked my way through repairs and making keys for the boxes of different ones i had. Always had a soft spot for them despite their inherent ability to chew themselves to bits and self destruct from the moment they were made !

[unknown]

Richard Phillips

Thank you Huw.
Henry Fear owned E Cotterall & Co. after Edwin died, so maybe those ones really are made by the Cotterill company. There seems to have been some out-sourcing of production. But if they are authorised production made for Cotterill, why not include the Cotterill name?
Today, Guardian Locks make locks for several makers, and have a collection of authentic stamps for those various makers. Seems surprising if that was not past practice. Bramah took legal action against several out-workers selling Bramah locks privately, without Bramah stamps, depriving the company of sales.

Wilson was a maker associated with Cotterill; and Thomas Turner made copies of patent locks after the patent monopolies expired.