Hobbs & Co London - Padlock Manufacture Date?

bacade

I recently purchased a Hobbs & Co. padlock on EBAY. The lock came in its original box and wrapper and is in unused condition, with 2 original keys. The seller recently posted for sale 2 identical Hobbs & Co. locks, each new and in the original boxes with 2 original keys. Each of the three locks have different serial numbers. Does any one know the approximate date of manufacture of this padlock? I tried to upload images of my lock but the upload kept failing so I included the ebay link instead. I could not upload image in a PDF either. Maybe the file size is too big.

Pschiffe

bacade wrote
I recently purchased a Hobbs & Co. padlock on EBAY. The lock came in its original box and wrapper and is in unused condition, with 2 original keys. The seller recently posted for sale 2 identical Hobbs & Co. locks, each new and in the original boxes with 2 original keys. Each of the three locks have different serial numbers. Does any one know the approximate date of manufacture of this padlock? I tried to upload images of my lock but the upload kept failing so I included the ebay link instead. I could not upload image in a PDF either. Maybe the file size is too big.

I copied your image from eBay see thumbnail attached, I have no experience with such matters, but since it is coming from India, I sincerely hope that they are not counterfeits!

Pete Schifferli

[unknown]

bacade

Thanks for helping out with the image. I am familiar with the counterfeit risk concerning locks from India but I think the precision quality of the lock and the keys, the original labeled box, all lead me to believe these locks are the real McCoy. If it is a counterfeit they did not cut any corners at all. Wish I could upload an image of the box cover. Is the max size for a file upload 2MB? I tried to compress the image to reduce the file size but that did not work either. Sorry about that. Never used to have upload problems before.

KitBear

Looks too well done to be fake Usually the keys are a huge indicator that it’s fake. The stamping looks too clear and precise on the markings.

I’d be confident to say that it’s real.

bacade

Thanks KitBear. I spent more time examining it very closely with a magnifying glass and the precision of the manufacturing is excellent in every aspect. What is the best way to find out the vintage of this model padlock? Note: The box label says Hobbs & Hart but the lock is stamped Hobbs & Co.

Richard Phillips

bacade wrote
Thanks KitBear. I spent more time examining it very closely with a magnifying glass and the precision of the manufacturing is excellent in every aspect. What is the best way to find out the vintage of this model padlock? Note: The box label says Hobbs & Hart but the lock is stamped Hobbs & Co.

Hobbs insisted that all the company’s locks be marked only ‘HOBBS’, but allowed that after his death, the legal name of the company could be changed, which it was. Members of the Hart family had been been managing the company for him since Hobbs had returned to USA. The company name remained Hobbs Hart & Co. until it ‘joined’ the Chubb Group in [1956(?)].

The keys for this look right; seems a good many genuine Chubb, and Hobbs, locks were used in India by the government (and especially the British army) pre-independance, providing many models for copying.

Some illiterate(?) workers could not decide whether they were making a ‘Chubb’ or a ‘Hobbs’, so settled for ‘CHOBBS’!

[unknown]

Daniel John

Hi Richard

Thank you for the insights regarding the naming of the Hobbs Company.

The information caught my attention as I have a number of Hobbs’ prison locks (about six) in my collection. I have often wondered at the difference in the naming on the lovely plaques attached to two of them (see the accompanying photos).

One lock is marked ‘Hobbs & Co.’ The other is marked ‘Hobbs Hart & Co.’

What I am attempting to do here is use the information surrounding the various names of the Hobbs company to roughly date my locks.

Information sourced from the late Jim Evas’ excellent website (A Gazetteer of Lock and Key Makers) states that:

1: “The company started in 1851 and was formally registered as Hobbs and Co. in 1852.”

2: “But by 1855 it had become Hobbs, Ashley and Company.”

3: “Hobbs had stipulated that his name should always head the Company so it became Hobbs, Hart and Co. in 1860.”

Based on this, does that mean that my blue lock, labelled only Hobbs & Co, must have been made somewhere between 1852 (when the Company was registered as Hobbs and Co) and 1855 (by which time the Company had changed to Hobbs, Ashley and Company)?

With regard to the black lock, marked ‘Hobbs Hart & Co,’ would it be correct that it must date after 1860 (at which point the company became Hobbs Hart & Co, and remained so until its absorption into Chubb in the mid 1950s)?

Any insights from veterans of the trade would be most appreciated.

For me, the locks themselves are only part of the story. It is the history of them, their provenance and development that makes them what they are (to me, at least).

If any other members care to chime in, please do. And if anyone has literature on prison locks, particularly these Hobbs ones, I’d love to see it.

I have several original Hobbs catalogues I’m happy to scan and upload (if that is permissible - Brian, your views???)

Richard Phillips

Despite Hobbs’ stipulation, at least some later locks were indeed marked ‘Hobbs Hart & Co’. I have one from some time after 1880, for example. There were, at one early period, three partners: Hobbs, Ashley, & Fortescue. They provided the initial capital for the company. Ashley died in 1860 and Hobbs passed (sold, or only made him Managing Director?) the company to John Mathias Hart, and the Hart family ran the company thereafter. Hobbs retained an interest (possibly including financial) until his death in 1891. Hobbs retained an interest in the company: he returned in 1872 to celebrate the 21st anniversary, held at the Crystal Palace which had, by then, been moved to Sydenham.

When product markinf added Hart I do not know, but probably late, perhaps only after Hobbs’ death.
I notice the OP’s padlock has a broad arrow and ‘I’, which suggests it was used by the British army in India. The army also made much use of Hobbs’ cell locks in its prisons, so all seems right.

The company produced A century of making security equipment, 1851-1951 in 1951, but I have not seen it. Perhaps HoL archive has a copy, and can add anything relevant to this question?

Daniel John

Thanks for the further info.

It was useful, though shedded no light on my questions, above.

Specifically, would it be correct to assume that the Hobbs lock (marked Hobbs & Co, painted blue) must have been made sometime between 1852 (when the Company was registered as Hobbs & Co) and 1855 (by which time the Company had changed to Hobbs, Ashley and Company)?

And, second, that the black lock, marked ‘Hobbs Hart & Co,’ must date after 1860 (at which point the company became Hobbs Hart & Co, and remained so until its absorption into Chubb in the mid 1950s)?

Hart was added to the Company name in 1860, at which point it became Hobbs, Hart & Co.

I have, in my collection, the Hobbs publication you refer too. And one other. Happy to share, here, if that is permissible (re copyright etc????)

Paul Prescott

Its imporant to note the difference between the legal name of the company and what it stamped on locks. Ive seen a number of people claim that a lock that is stamped Hobbs & Co, simply MUST be made before the 1860 formation of Hobbs Hart & Co.

Rubbish.

Simply look at the paratoptic locks. Clearly dated after that and they are stamped Hobbs & Co.

If a lock has more info it may help tighten a date window but the abscence of the partners names does not make it an earlier lock.

Daniel John

Noted.

No one is claiming anything here. Rather, by a process of deduction, hoping to narrow down, even approximately, the timeframes in which these locks were manufactured.

Something that has become apparent, particularly with the old prison locks, is that very few people seem to have them or, more importantly, know anything about them.

It is partially that aspect, of course, that makes them.so collectable. They were, after all, designed for a purpose totally unique and distinct to any other lock.

The flipside is that it seems incredibly difficult to find historical information regarding them.

It seems likely the blue lock is older but, again, until someone can come forward with literature regarding them (and these locks all would’ve been in sales catalogues. It is my hope a copy survives because that is where the answers lie), all is conjecture.

Syd Waterman

Hello Daniel ,

Information concerning Prison /custodial locks is difficult to come across, especially from the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] Century. I suspect manufacturers like Hobbs issued a dedicated catalogue containing details of locks and fitments suitable for prisons.
Regarding your black lock, marked ‘Hobbs Hart & Co,’ the patent for the lock mechanism is contained within J.M. HartÂ’s patent number 1902,dated July 30[SUP]th[/SUP] 1861.
The inscription on the name plate contains a reference to M.M. Ltd, cell lock, and Hobbs Hart & Co. being Sole Manufacturers. This is the only Hobbs cell lock that I have come across that states that they Â“are Sole ManufacturersÂ”.
Hope this assists in dating the lock Â–earliest 1861 . I would guess it had a 20 year run.

Daniel John

Hi there.

Thank you for the information. It is just this sort of thing I’m looking for, in order to narrow down an approximate age bracket for these locks.

The patent sheet is especially useful. We can say, with certainty, then, that the black locks mechanism had been designed by 1861. At this stage, it’d be fair to say the lock falls somewhere between then and 1880. It is in remarkable condition internally. It originated from the old (long closed) Bodmin Gaol. Speaking to a fellow collector, I’ve discovered one other example, on a cell door in a very old courthouse in Scotland.

I notice the patent page you attached is sheet 6, of 7 sheets. Would you by any chance have the other sheets, and/or any other literature pertaining to prison locks? I agree, such literature is very hard to come by. I’ve managed to source original material by Gibbons, Folger Adam, SS and Yale (all dedicated custodial catalogues, as you suggested is the case with such locks). However, still looking for information regarding Hobbs, Chubb, Wing & Webb, and pre-1950 Gibbons. Happy to share literature, and would love to see what others may have.

Re the blue lock, my hunch is it’s older than the black one. No.way of verifying this, but the life it’s had would certainly suggest so. It also feels slightly more primitive (if such a thing can even be said of a lock by Hobbs!) in manufacture than the black one. It was removed, during a refit (a move to Chubb 4L45), from an HMP built during the 1500s.

Syd Waterman

Hi Daniel,
The remainder of Hobbs patent number 1902 contained details of safe locks, no additional info relating to cell locks.
Unfortunately I donÂ’t have any literature from the listing of manufacturers in your email. I was unaware that Wing & Webb were manufacturers of custodial locks.
One name that you left out from the listing was Chas. Smith & Sons.
One of the best ways to potentially date locks is by the design of the mechanism., related to a Patent .
If you post a picture of the mechanism of your Hobbs Blue lock ,itÂ’s possible that I will be able to pin it down to a Patent.
IÂ’m sure that itÂ’s just a typo. It ( referring to the blue lock)was removed, during a refit (a move to Chubb 4L45), from an HMP built during the 1500s.
Syd.

Daniel John

Hi again Syd

Yes, indeed, Wing & Webb did make cell locks. See the attached photos of several of their products. Fortunately, these two locks retain their original keys. What is most interesting about the one painted a cream colour (and with the maker’s badge) is that it can be operated from both sides. But by the key only, not the handle. It is a double throw lock. When the bolt is fully withdrawn, the key cannot release it. Only by lifting the handle will the bolt shoot to its first position. That it can be unlocked from both sides, by the key, is thus peculiar given that it cannot (at least from what I can deduce) be locked (in terms of first throw) from both sides.

Ah, yes, I did overlook C. Smith. A prominent manufacturer of prison fittings, indeed. Have attached photos of several interesting Smith locks. The one with the large dial is perhaps the most impressive - five levers, and a very well made mechanism. I’ve encountered one other, in the collection of another member of the site. That member has informed me that literature regarding Smith is very difficult to come by.

Apologies re the info regarding provenance of the blue lock. To clarify, the lock was indeed removed from an institution built in the 1500s. But, of course, the lock would have been fitted sometime in, I suspect, the mid-to-late 1800s. And then removed in the 1940s, with the arrival of the Chubb 4L42.

Interesting regarding the patent info. I do have several Hobbs’ safe locks, so would be great to see those other pages if that is possible.

Here is a photo showing internal view of blue Hobbs’ lock, as requested.

Thanks again for the insights.

Syd Waterman

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for posting the internal picture of the blue Hobbs. Cannot pin it down to a definitive patent, however agree with you that it’s probably earlier than the black Hobbs lock.
The Wing & Webb double sided is certainly different ,definitely not for a cell .

The Smith lock with the indicator is attractive . Have yet to see a catalogue of their range of products.
Another makers of Prison and Asylum locks is Joseph Kaye & Sons. Occasionally come across their Asylum locks as example attached. Three lever ,Double throw, the second throw controlled by the master.
Hope this helps.
Syd.