Help To ID this Safe Lock Gibbons or Parnell

Ant

Hello all. Cut a key to this lock (note boltstep is at the rear of the key) Someone told me it was a Gibbons? but not sure so would welcome any Suggestons See pic enclosed It looks quite old but it has been in a drawer for over 40 years?
Many Thanks Ant

Brian Morland MLA Hon

That’s a George Price Ne Plus Ultra later style, or a copy of it, with rear entry key way. Do any of the levers have numbers or markings, also what size is your lock.

Paul Prescott

George Price.

Could be marked Gibbons (late examples) as I think Gibbons bought out Price at some point.

Huw Eastwood

Nice lock Ant. Seen loads of the old Ne Plus Ultras but can’t ever remember seeing one reversed like that- had no idea there were rear entry versions of them, or that they were copied like Brian says.

Nice find, and assuming it’s genuine I can probably find you a period blank for it if you want one, too nice a lock for a modern plated key 🙁nerd):

Brian Morland MLA Hon

You are right Paul, Gibbons acquired George Price. But I have never seen this lock marked Gibbons so if it is it will be a first. Bates was another maker who copied this lock although his locks were generally larger, which is why I asked the size.

Ant

Thanks for the information It has no name stamped on it anywhere but the levers and lock fixing screws are centre dotted to denote Which goes where ( though this could have been done any time in the past? It also has the lever stump on a floating platform see picture.
Size is 93mm x 56mm

Ant

MaxVaultage wrote
Nice lock Ant. Seen loads of the old Ne Plus Ultras but can’t ever remember seeing one reversed like that- had no idea there were rear entry versions of them, or that they were copied like Brian says.

Nice find, and assuming it’s genuine I can probably find you a period blank for it if you want one, too nice a lock for a modern plated key 🙁nerd):

Thanks Max I thought exactly that as I sorted through my blanks to cut a key for it last year when I first stumbled on it

[unknown]

Brian Morland MLA Hon

This is the one in the HoL collection with similar springing. I don’t think many would disagree yours is a George price lock. Note the three dots on both locks to the right of the second hole at the top. Price levers were dot marked as you say except for the top lever which was usually marked as illustrated. The size of this lock is also very close to yours. Ant, you have an unusual version with that reverse keyhole.

FYI - Those that can get to the MLA EXPO in October will be able to see a number of George Price locks including a very large rim lock featuring the original ‘Ne Plus Ultra’ patent. HoL will have an exhibit featuring several hundred historical locks.

Brian Morland MLA Hon

The floating platform is George Price’s anti pressure device. This is an example of an original key.

Brian Morland MLA Hon

BTW Ant, how many levers are there in your lock?

Ant

8 levers in the lock though as you see no name or number stamped on the top lever
Thanks again for the information I didn’t know that this was a rare version. but as its got no name on it could it perhaps be a copy?

KitBear

I’m going to make a guess here, perhaps someone might be willing to add or correct anything in this assumption.

I believe the lock was installed on the actual door itself as opposed to the door, pan? I assume that the whole mechanism was attached to the rear of the door and the door plate covering the mechanism (much like safe doors are constructed today).

It was common for mid Victorian safes to have the mechanism attached to the door separately and bolted in place so this would make it late Victorian, If none of the levers are marked then it’s a copy, George Price always marked his locks as did all makers of the time, it is possible that a new set or individual levers were made at some point but I doubt it because these locks are quite sturdy and if new keys were needed then all one would need to do is rearrange them to make a new combination, the design is definitely late because the 1860’s design had a comb spring instead if individual springs attached to the levers.

Kit

Brian Morland MLA Hon

None of this style locks, the 93 × 56 mm gunpowder proof lock, in the HoL collection have a name stamped on the lock other than the top lever. some don’t have the top lever stamped although they do have original keys marked George Price. The top lever in Ants lock is not stamped, and as with other locks with unstamped top levers I have always taken to be later versions. I am still leaning towards this being a George Price lock based on the block casting and anti-pressure brass-work detail compared.

The only George Price locks, where the case is stamped, in the collection are the earlier more open style such as the ex science museum locks and the large rim lock alluded two earlier.

This is a good opportunity to compare the locks for these details from all of our collections when we might learn a lot more.

Ants lock, whoever the maker, is the first we have seen with the reverse keyway, Kit has put forward some theory’s for this and again collectively we might be able to prove this point.

Huw Eastwood

The same for me- I’ve only ever seen the top lever marked on the Ne Plus Ultra locks and not the case, covers or bolt. Going from memory I thought most were 6 lever plus the bottom ‘floating platform’ as Brian described it, so with 8 levers Ants lock does seem something a bit special.

looking at the components of the lock there wouldn’t really be an area well suited for stamping apart from say, the bottom cover that overlaps the bolt or the area on the main cover above the projecting nozzle. The bolt head couldn’t really be stamped as on many locks because of the central channel to interlock with the boltwork.

going from memory again, all the GP’s I saw with this lock always had the lock mounted in with the boltwork on the bolt case. They were a beautiful fit with 2-way boltwork, the lock protected from sideways force and also interlocking tight in the Tailbar.

kitbears explanation makes sense to me, perhaps Ants lock is from a rarer variation with door construction like a Milners, ie with the lock screwed to the door but with the boltwork still in the bolt case.

Never encountered one like that though, and from memory I only really saw the Ne Plus Ultras on the same burglary resistant models, but short of a really unusual application it does seem the most logical explanation?