Help Identifing An Old Combo Lock

Angusbuddy

Good friend of mine had this come through the door with a broken spindle handle/knob. Wondering if anyone knows what kind of lock this is? Cast Iron door, lock burried in tons of fire clay with alot of steel holding it in place.

Lock has 2 wheels, spindle pushed in to operate the first, pulled back a little to operate the second and the pulled again to rotate and lift the fence. Then knob seen in picture turned to retract the bolts. Notice the markings on the nose on the cover plate, I’m assuming this was the dial or so to say the numbers as indicators???

Any help in understanding the maker or history would be much appreciated. I’m a padlock guy and don’t know much about safes however this one looked pretty old and was curious about when it might have been made. It currently sits in my buddies lock shop here in Omaha, NE and think it might have some local history but who knows!!!

Poor pictures from my Blackberry but they should provide enough to get the idea.

Doug MacQueen

Angus buddy, the lock and the safe were made by Lewis Lillie when he was in Troy, N.Y. He had several patents in his career and is considered to be one of the more prominent makers of his time. One of his safes is at the Lock Museum in Connecticut. Of his patents, only an 1865 combination lock comes up but there is some evidence that he was making combination locks earlier than this. And if you are willing to do a little more research on this lock we may be able to put it as an earlier lock/safe. His 1865 patent describes key changeable wheels. If you can check that lock out and the wheels are not key changeable, I would say it is earlier, possibly the mid to latter 1850’s. In Erroll’s “American Genius” he discusses an early version where there is a removable key that inserts into the dial. So if you can check this out further and with more pictures maybe it can be nailed down better. Nice find. Doug

Angusbuddy

Doug thanks for the prompt reply. I’ll see what I can do this week on a few more pictures and get them posted. I do have Errolls book in my collection, a signed copy from him and his son. They were at the Indy show a number of years ago after it’s release and I had a chance to meet them. Would you have any idea of what the handle/dial knob would have looked like? As mentioned that’s the next quest, to make something functional for the broken one.

Regards, John

Doug MacQueen

T he outside of the door looks the same as several Lillie safes I’ve seen. But the lock looks like it may be an early version or someone has remade a missing part without having the original to pattern after. Hard to tell from the pics. Typically, those safes have dials similar to the one pictured in “American Genius”. Unfortunately i didn’t take good close ups of the dials. I keep forgetting that Lillie was one of the pioneers in wheel operated locks. Check out pages 46 and 47 in “American Genius”. I don’t about any connection with Solomon Andrews as mentioned in the book, but that key operated wheel lock was patented by Lewis Lillie on Nov 13, 1849 No. 6,872. Solomon Andrews did patent a keylock that would have been referred to as a “Snailwheel” but that isn’t it. Lillie did have somewhat a flair for style in his locks, which is also seen in his door castings . Doug

Angusbuddy

Hi Doug, as mentioned here are a few more pictures taken earlier today. After a closer look and reading through the Genius info it appears that the lock either has the key/tool stuck in the lock after breaking or someone has improvised a bit??? Anyhow take a look and let me know what you the expert thinks? Best regards, John

Doug MacQueen

2 non changeable wheels and the alignment index are pretty good clues as to an earlier Lillie. There were several dial combination locks of the 1840’s, 50’s and early 60’s that started out as a removable dial/key version and that looks like it could be one. Here is a later version of that safe and lock. Doug

Angusbuddy

Any thoughts on the broken spindle? Do you think it was a dial or something else. I don’t see how a dial would be practical as it needs to move in and out to operate the lock? Maybe we can talk off forum if you agree, I’m sure there are going to be a number of other questions that come up. I’m attaching my email if you wouldn’t mind replying sometime and we can exchange numbers and talk about things in more detail.

Regards, John

jjkarnett@msn.com

Doug MacQueen

There were quite a few locks that had push- pull dials, including Lillie, up until the late 1860’s when that type fell out of favor as fixed dial models came on the scene. As I mentioned, these were often preceded by a totally removable “key” where, like your safe, the indexing information was marked on the door or door plate, as opposed to on the dial as seen in later locks. But that doesn’t mean yours was removable. It is really too hard for me to tell without having the lock in hand to inspect. If you are interested send me the lock and I would be happy to check it out. If you wish I could make it functional or advise you on what to do. I don’t care if we discuss this further on here or by email, phone or whatever, your choice. Doug macslocks@gmail.com

Doug MacQueen

Finally finished with the repairs. I found that this same lock also did come in a dial version. Also compare it to the Lillie in American Genius on page 83. I realize now that the Am Gen lock was made to be a changeable version, hence the second set of wheels. I also added to this lock a blocking plate found on all other later Lillie locks using this push pull type of mechanism. Without the plate a lockout could occur requiring the safe to slammed down on its side to fully retract the bolt. This lock may well be the earliest Lillie found so far. Doug

Doug MacQueen

I should add that if you look closely at the last picture you can see the gear teeth on the backside of each wheel. 32 clicks per revolution. The lock takes some getting used to especially since it can be locked open. Doug

Dean Nickel

Great job!

Thank you VERY much for sharing! 🙁nod):

Doug MacQueen

Thanks Dean. I have done a little more searching on Lillie and found a few items of interest. There was a 4 page World’s Safe Co. booklet (or catalog?) put out in 1851 by Bates and Griffin. Lillie’s 1851 safe patent was assigned to John Bates. Bates, Griffin and Lillie were all in the wholesale grocery business in Troy NY. Looking at the safe shown in the patent, the keylock nose does appear to be the same type as this lock. The two ads found are an 1854 World’s Safe Co. and an 1863 Lillie’s. In the 1863 ad, the keylock is still being shown. Then there is Guy Zani Jr.'s Lillie safe as seen on his website “The Antique Safe Collector”, which probably predates this safe. But the fact that this lock did not originally have the blocking plate on the bolt talon makes this a very Lillie back when the company was known as the “World’s Safe Co.” Doug I also found this lock was later nicknamed the “Monitor” lock after the ironclad of the Civil War.