Who made my safe?

blueeyedboy

Hi all,

Thank the lord i found this site, i have spent many hours searching the net to try and answer this question.

I am starting my first restoration and hope to keep the safe and use it, the poor old girl has seen some action with it having an attempted break in, well they don’t make em like they used to. They didn’t get in.

However they broke the spindle and key cover off. The safe had a plate on the front which says Montague Burton, this I have discovered is from the clothes shop Burton, i am assuming it was one of the shop safes, i know the safe would have been made for the shop but i would like to know who made it so that i can try to get hold genuine replacements or make a sympathetic restoration as is possible.

I don’t know if this makes any difference in identification but the brass wear which covers the key hole are off set, pic attached

I have attached some photos and anyones help would be greatly appreciated.

oldbiscuit

How big is that safe? The machine screw heads on the inside door cover must be pretty big or it just an illusion. Mark

Brian Morland MLA Hon

The hinges look like Tann, additionally the lining is also reminiscent of Tann. Its also a twelve corner bent again first used by Tann. You say you have the plate so may we also see a picture. Tann had a history of making safes for other companies to supply fittings and badge. In the early days Tann made safes for Chubb before they set up to produce there own. Another pointer might be from the lock if its still there.

Dean Nickel

Yes do pull the inner door cover off and take a picture to show what is still there. The 8 screws should allow for the inner panel to come off. Do be careful of the plate as it might drop off and hurt you or anything below.

Take LOTS of pictures before you start the project so you can show the detail of what the safes condition was before you started. This way you have a pattern to at least know how the paint was done.

blueeyedboy

Hi all,

Thank you so much for the responses. I really appreciate your time and expertise on this. it is becoming a bit of an obsession.

I have attached a few more pics and had time today to take the cover off and have a bit of safe time.

The outer dimensions are W=50.5 cm H= 65.5 cm D=50.5cm, and its no illusion, the screws are that big, they are 2.7cm across the head. I was quite surprised when i opened the safe for the first time.

I have attached a pic of the brass plate, i am still scrapping concrete and blobs of paint off the outside, and hope to find a serial number or some kind of marking, but so far no look. is there a standard place to mark a safe other then the inside of the door?

I have been taking quite a lot of photos to show how the condition changes, my next job is to stencil out the paint work on the front so that it may be put back once repainted.

Does anyone have any tips for paint removal and paints i should use? I have been looking into sandblasting or can you suggest a better way? I am to get the Safe sprayed.

Any questions let me know

Dean Nickel

That brings up how you want to “Restore” the safe. You can use modern paint and bond it right to the metal like that found in powder coating. In that case you would have to sandblast or burn off the pain in a kiln. Now if you want to use wet paint you can prep the paint that is there by clean/sand all of it and recover. I am not a “It must be like it was then” purest. SO it comes down to what do you want? I would use the sandblast and power coat as that is a NICE finish. You will need heat lamps and small powder coat gun. IF you are thinking of reselling this safe then I wouldn’t suggest powder coat.

Auto Body Repair Tools Shop, Auto Body Supplies, Automotive & Classic Car Restoration - Eastwood
These guys have most of what you would need. Or find something closer too you but this should give you an idea of that to look for. Just don’t make it hotrod red or screaming lime green! LOL🙁rofl):

Ok now back to the safe door. In the center of the door you will see the lock. There looks to be 4 screws holding that in. Remove that lock and see if there are serial numbers on the lock.

blueeyedboy

Afternoon,

There’s good news and bad. I have removed the entire mechanism and cleaned it down, removed the lock and opened it up, its a seven lever lock. However there are no serial numbers anywhere on any parts in here. Least its all clean now though.

I have carefully removed all the lock levers and labelled them up so as to make the job of putting it back together easiler.

Now the good news, on the front of the door under a huge blob of dried on paint i have found a number stamped into the metal, this was above the brass plate and after so careful scrapping i have managed to find this No. 22.70197 or No. 22.70/97, not sure if there is a one of a line between 70 and 97.

I hope this means something to you guys.

thank you for the advice on the paint, just to clarify you would use powder paint but if i was selling you wouldn’t? i assume these leave different finishes. I won’t be selling the safe but want to ensure i get a nice finish.

Let me know your thoughts

Dean Nickel

Take a few pics of the lock with the cover on and off the lock. This also might help date the safe.

As for paint. Heck yes powder coating will give the better finish. It will outlast almost every other type of paint other than epoxy paint…. and there is question there. Just be sure to cure the paint and have a temp gun so you KNOW the paint is hot enough. The other option is take the safe to a powder coat place and have it shot. They would get it right and have more options of color. Shouldn’t cost that much really. Also the place I worked in 25 years ago had a kiln to take off old paint and then sand blast the metal.

I would love the sales guy. He would take a paint tag that was a 4 inch square metal plate and to show the paint take a ball peen hammer round side and dent the paint…. not chip but dent it. It is a nice durable finish. This is why it is so wide spread. :8):

blueeyedboy

I will have a word with my evil twin brother, see if he knows anyone who can do the powder coating.

Do you think i will be able to find any pictures of what the escutcheon and spindle should look like?

I am wokring on a pic of the lock

Dean Nickel

Spindle? It is a key lock from the look of that hole. Spindle would be found on a dial safe. So the escutcheon plate for the keyhole is the issue. eBay maybe.

Alan Morgan

Dean, we call the square bar that connects the bolt control handle to the follower (handle cam) a spindle.

If it is 8mm then easily available and would also fit a standard brass unsprung door knob.

Dean Nickel

There it is again. We use a word for one thing and someone else uses it for a different thing. Oh well…. 🙁giggle):

I now understand. :8): A handle shaft is what I think we call that here. Never heard of it as a spindle here. To me a spindle is the part that the dial connects to the wheel pack in the lock… but you more than likely know that as you are a safe tech.🙂-: I am learning everyday. :8)::8):

blueeyedboy

Its a strange old world

My dad has the same problme discussing classic bike parts with people .

I am still searching the web and researching but i can’t find a escutcheon that would fit the holes on my previous picture or what the original spindle would have looked like.

From the details i have found out about Montague Burton it would have been quite ornate, possibly

Billy B Edwards Jr. CML

From the LIST Council Locksmith Dictionary;

spindle n. a component which transfers rotary motion from outside a lock or latch case to an inner mechanism
As for the escutcheon, you might try posting something on Craigslist asking for a picture. If you can get that it is just a matter of negotiating for the part.
BBE.

blueeyedboy

I have stripped the mechanism and lock completely cleaned it down and currently have the whole lpt spread out across the table, the misses is not as pleased as i am with myself.

Downside of all this is i can’t find any makers mark, marks at all anywhere on the lock or any other parts.

The lock itself has no stamps anywhere, i am assuming there has to be something somewhere so will be going over it with a fine tooth comb ASAP

Alan Morgan

Russell, the hinges still make me think you were closer with Perry.

blueeyedboy

What a strange coincidence, that you say Perry
I found the attached image whilst hunting the net this weekend, this safe is in Australia but is a ‘THOMAS PERRY & SON LTD BILSTON Fire Resisting Safe’
From what i have read on this site “Thomas Perry, Pre 1899 Birmingham, acquired by Samuel Withers. Samuel Withers, 1843 Birmingham, Over many years Samuel Withers had acquired several of the old Birmingham companies. Safes Ltd, J Cartwright, Thomas Perry, E Hipkins, Phillips and Birmingham Safe Co. These were all transferred to Stratford-Tann in 1968.”
The Lock escutcheon from the photo looks like it would fit a treat, the hinges look pretty much identical, I have requested some more pictures from the current owner.

NatSafeMatt

Wow…that is a cool safe! Wish I could help with info on it. Best of luck and God bless!
Matt

Tom Gordon

I do have one of those escutcheons that I could sell you - email me on redlockuk@msn.com
Tom