Yale and Towne L5 Movement on Cannonball

btanders

Need help on a cannonball safe, It’s a Manganese Steel Company Safe
fron J.J. Deright Safe Co, with a L5 Timelock Movement in it. Anyone know the years the Manganese Steel Company was in business, also the serial numbers of the movements in the L5 are 34540, 29320, 34542. Anyone know the date ranges of these movements? Seems the middle one was replaced at some point. Safe came from “The Commercial State Bank”. Its a double dial safe, the dial locks are serial numbers 490 and 491. Safe is 5″5in. One of the largest I’ve seen. Guess weight 7,000 lbs. Will have pictures added within the next week. Thanks for any information you can give me.

Paul Prescott

I thought there was some dating info in Johns book ?

Doug MacQueen

From what I have seen Manganese Steel Safe was in business from early 1900 up into the teens, quite possibly longer. Hibbard of Hibbard-Rodman-Ely was involved in the company based on certain patents seen. Hibbard had been involved with Tayler Iron and Steel Co (TISCO). It is not clear but they seem to have been related companies. Ely, also formerly of H-R-E started Ely Norris around the same time as Manganese Steel Safe Co.

btanders

oldlock wrote
I thought there was some dating info in Johns book ?

I looked heavly in the book and found some info on some of the L series, but nothing on the L5, the L is somewhat different than the L5. My-time-machine has a picture of the L5, but his discription only tells the serial numbers.

Anyone have and idea how I might determine what “The Commercial State Bank” this came from?

We had a TISCO cannonball, and the double lock movements in that one has a lot of similarities to this Manganese safe. I also noticed that a Cary safe I’m cleaning for someone with the Yale 62 ½ also has some similarities.

We did determine that you cannot lock the bottom dial without the top dial in the open position, and you cannot open the safe without both combinations, in the TISCO double dial either combo worked.

We also have a Silver thing that goes around the dial on the front of the door and it’s on its own timer deal. Anyone know what this might be, it should have 2 of them but we only have 1, and it’s missing a part that relates to the dial.
I’m still working on pictures and will have them soon.

[unknown]

btanders

here’s the link to some photos so far

http://picasaweb.google.com/AndersonAntiqueSafes/ManganeseSafeCoCannonball#

Thanks

Paul Prescott

Any chance you can upload pictures here ?

btanders

Edited to Upload the pictures here . The inbuilt automatic thumbnailing makes things tidier …

Dean Nickel

What caliber does this safe use? .308?:wink:

Nice safe!

Doug MacQueen

btanders wrote
Edited to Upload the pictures here . The inbuilt automatic thumbnailing makes things tidier …

I checked through some pics and found the same lock and timelock setup you have. Based on the design it looks like the L5 was designed to work specifically with the over and under combination locks whereas the L was for use with the small Yale No 3 Automatic mounted below it. You have one nice cannonball and pics are great. Have found a model and or serial numbers on the comb locks?

[unknown]

btanders

We are missing 3 parts in one of the over under combination locks, the one working is allowing us to use the safe, however, I would like to make both work. Anyone know or possibly have parts to this type of set up, we are missing the 2 gears one from the dial, and the other from the wheel pack, the other part is more unique and unsure of what to call it, I’ll take a picture of the completed lock and circle the part we need. Any help would be great. Thanks

Doug MacQueen

If you are unable to locate the parts, I might be able to make them up out of other Yale parts that I have.

andy

        November 29, 1899, The Hibbard-Rodman-Ely safe Company, was formed to manufacture safes made of manganese steel, which is claimed to be especially adapted to the making of fire and dynamite proof safes.  The offices will be at 253 Broadway, New York.  Alexander C. Humphreys – President, W.J. Taylor first vice-President, Henry D. Hibbard second vice-President, and Walter Gaston Secretary-Treasurer.  The Directors are John Fritz, Albert C. Humphreys, W.J. Taylor, R.E. Jennings, Sidney Dillon Ripley, George W. Young, Henry D. Hibbard, Capt. Samuel Rodman, and Sumner N. Ely.  The factory will be at High Bridge, NJ.
        The name of the company was changed to the Manganese Steel Safe Company around 1901, though it appears that the original name may have been kept in use for a period of time afterwards.

The Manganese Steel Safe Company moved from Plainfield, NJ to New York in the early 1900’s.
The stockholders voted to dissolve the company and sell the assets to the Mosler Safe Company in mid 1909.

Doug MacQueen

Hey Andy, a little more info on HRE. Taylor Iron and Steel Co. (TISCO) of High Bridge, NJ held the sole US license for the making of Hadfield’s manganese steel at the end of the 1800’s. I found an earlier Hibbard patent on the making of steel and has him listed as residing in Pittsburg. So I am assuming he probably was connected with TISCO when the HRE company was started. Rodman was a US Army capt in the early 1890’s and in charge of the explosives testing on current state of the art for the US Treasury in 1893. Haven’t yet found anything on Sumner Ely other than patents but he may have the design engineer for HRE. It was TISCO not the Manganese Steel Safe Co of NY that continued up into the teens and I still haven’t figured out the relationship of the two companies but you will note that the VP Taylor most likely was the owner of TISCO. And I would bet the name change from HRE to MSS Co of NY was purely for advertising purposes.

andy

Excellent addition, I wasn’t aware that Taylor Iron & Steel (TISCO) had the Manganese patent. And I don’t have them listed as a manufacture unless they were simply the foundry for some of the other companies.
I only have the Manganese Steel Safe Company listed up to 1909, when the stock holders voted to disolve the company and sell all of the assets to Mosler. They wern’t around in the “teens”.
During my research, I’ve noticed that a lot of various “officers” in a number of companies held positions in other companies as well, so it could very well be that Taylor was not only associated with MSS but with TISCO also.

Doug MacQueen

Taylor Iron and Steel Co (TISCO) later became the Taylor Wharton Steel Co. TISCO did make bodies for several other safe companies but I have also seen several TISCO cannonballs with no mention of NY Manganese on them. In my original post I had mistakenly stated NY Mang went into the teens. It was TISCO not NY Manganese that had continued into the teens with making cannonballs. And the TISCO models are very similar to the NY Manganese models. It is all so confusing.