Beautiful Antique Sargent & Greenleaf Vault/Time Lock

michael46774 · 2007-06-14T14:28:53+00:00

Hello folks, I have been poking around on this site and love the information here. Lots of smart people here too. You all have me getting into old locks and mechanisms! This is the best site I have been able to find in doing some research on my locks. I ran across this S&G time lock a few weeks ago at an estate sale and have searched the web high and low and have been unable to find any info on this particular vault/time lock. How old? How many were made? What’s it worth? Is there a way to track the history of this particular one? Are any of these locks still in use today? It’s an amazing piece with the original keys and it runs and unlocks perfectly! I may just keep it as it looks great on my mantle but my pack rat habits drive my wife nuts. I have a couple of old Keen Kutter RR locks that I display. I love the craftsmansip of these old pieces! It’s surprisingly heavy at 11 lbs for it’s size. 6″ X 5 ½″ X 3″. I’d sure appreciate any info you folks could pass on to me or just enjoy the pics of this gorgeous old S&G time lock. Click on the images to enlarge. Thanks! Mike

Dean Nickel

A handcuff key might be almost the right size.

Jack Sullivan

wylk wrote
The winding key is most likely one of the standard clock winding keys, a simple square post key. My notes suggest it might be a #4 winding key which you could probably find at a clock/watch shop. Please let us know how this turns out.

Thanks. I examined the winding arbors of the time lock. They are square-shaped & measure approx. 0.125″ on the side, which equates to 3.175 mm (close enough to the 3.2 mm of a #4 winding key). I’ll call around tomorrow to see if I can pick one up from a local locksmith or jeweler. If not these are inexpensive to purchase on the web.

It’s both interesting (& disappointing) that S&G claims the key they sold me fit ALL their time locks. I’ll call them & return it.

Jack

———- Post added at 09:56 PM ———- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ———-

Halflock wrote
A handcuff key might be almost the right size.

Thanks. Almost but not quite. I have handcuff keys & they will not fit through the round portion of the keyway on the time lock door which appears to be 0.125″ (3.2 mm). The key bit is quite a bit shorter than the 0.25″ bent paper clip but I won’t get to test that though.

I believe that handcuff keys are nearly universal but I spent only a few minutes looking for dimensions without success.

Since my interest is in both establishing the functionality of the time lock as well as increasing its value, I’ll be looking for this key in brass. Hopefully something that should be fairly common won’t be difficult to locate.

Jack

[unknown] [unknown]

Doug MacQueen

S&G is an old company so I guess some slack is in order. Back in the 1960’s or 70’s they had an ad of a beautiful bank vault door showing quite clearly the beautiful locks and timelock mounted on the back of the door. The only problem was, the door had Yale locks and a Yale timelock on it. I will check my clock keys today. Doug

Doug MacQueen

I checked my clock keys, which are only modern ones from when I did bank service work 20 years ago. The S&G key will fit the early 1900’s S&G movements I have but they are sloppy by about .010″. I cannot say the 1800’s movements are the same but if they are they can be used for occasional use because the amount of torque needed to wind the movement is not enough to do damage to the winding arbor. In a bank that would not be recommended. Also here is a couple pics showing the winding and door keys. Doug

Jack Sullivan

Doug MacQueen wrote
S&G is an old company so I guess some slack is in order. Back in the 1960’s or 70’s they had an ad of a beautiful bank vault door showing quite clearly the beautiful locks and timelock mounted on the back of the door. The only problem was, the door had Yale locks and a Yale timelock on it. I will check my clock keys today. Doug

Thanks for that. The S&G catalog page makes an interesting addition to my file on the Model 3.

I had some interesting discussions with some lock experts familiar with S&G time locks & keys this AM. I was told that the key that I was sent is a #4. This will not fit the winding arbors on the Model 3 because both the arbors & the key are the same 3.2 mm size. I was told what I needed was either a #5 (3.4 mm) or a #6 (3.6 mm). These come from Switzerland, France & Germany. The larger key is preferred due to the winding arbors having tapered shafts. Materials are steel or brass, with steel being preferred over brass for routine (daily) use.

Here is an interesting reference on winding key sizes & nomenclature: Winding Key Sizes

Regarding the door key, I was told that what I needed (if not an original) was an old luggage key, perhaps being filed down a bit to enter the door’s keyway.

I have a call in to a local locksmith & hope to have both of these questions resolved in the near future.

Jack

[unknown]

Jack Sullivan

Jack Sullivan wrote
Thanks for that. The S&G catalog page makes an interesting addition to my file on the Model 3.

I had some interesting discussions with some lock experts familiar with S&G time locks & keys this AM. I was told that the key that I was sent is a #4. This will not fit the winding arbors on the Model 3 because both the arbors & the key are the same 3.2 mm size. I was told what I needed was either a #5 (3.4 mm) or a #6 (3.6 mm). These come from Switzerland, France & Germany. The larger key is preferred due to the winding arbors having tapered shafts. Materials are steel or brass, with steel being preferred over brass for routine (daily) use.

Here is an interesting reference on winding key sizes & nomenclature: Winding Key Sizes

Regarding the door key, I was told that what I needed (if not an original) was an old luggage key, perhaps being filed down a bit to enter the door’s keyway.

I have a call in to a local locksmith & hope to have both of these questions resolved in the near future.

Jack

A local clock repair outfit, The Pendulum, has both size winding keys for $2 each & a large collection of miscellaneous keys that I will be free to examine for a fit with the door lock as soon as they regain electric power following the recent hurricane.

Jack

[unknown]

wylk

Doug MacQueen wrote
Back in the 1960’s or 70’s they had an ad of a beautiful bank vault door showing quite clearly the beautiful locks and timelock mounted on the back of the door. The only problem was, the door had Yale locks and a Yale timelock on it.

I would love to see that ad, if you run across it!

[unknown]

Jack Sullivan

I just won a Yale & Towne ‘Triple L’ time lock on eBay that comes complete with both door key & winding key. Hopefully these will serve also on the S&G Model 3 as templates for sourcing the duplicates I need.

Jack

Jack Sullivan

Jack Sullivan wrote
I just won a Yale & Towne ‘Triple L’ time lock on eBay that comes complete with both door key & winding key. Hopefully these will serve also on the S&G Model 3 as templates for sourcing the duplicates I need.

Jack

I sourced a #6 brass winding key on eBay & it works fine on the S&G #3 time lock. The winding key on the Y&T appears to be a #4, which came with the unit. All the movements work OK.

The simple door key on both time locks are the same basic design similar to a handcuff key but smaller in shaft diameter. The door key came with the Y&T but the keyway on the S&G is even smaller. I still plan to visit the local lock shop in search of this key.

Jack

[unknown]

benc

Hey all,
Im very new to this site, basically just trying to gather some information about this 3 Movement bank vault lock i recently acquired. I still have the key to wind the clocks, as far as i know it is the original. I got it from a family friend who passed and know next to nothing about it. Just trying to figure how old it is, and value of it. any info is greatly appreciated, thanks!

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