Key In Knob (KIK) different/similar standards?

wylk

I have noticed a trend in my small collection of KIK (Key In Knob) cylinders. About half are ⅝″ (.625″) in diameter plus or minus a few thousandths, the other half are 16 mm (.630″) in diameter plus or minus maybe a tenth of a millimeter. I’m surprised the industry would support two different standards that are so close.

This reared its ugly head when I tried to put an Assa Twin cylinder into an Abus 83/45 and it would not fit.

Am I correct, these two sizes are distinct and exist in parallel? Did Abus make a mistake by boring the lock body for ⅝″ rather than 16 mm?

Suggestions on how to enlarge the 83/45’s “pocket” are welcome, as well.

Huw Eastwood

Are these the binocular shaped KIK as I’m more familiar with the re-keyable Euro stuff cut for half euro cylinders, all of which is metric. I recall some padlocks we had removable USA pattern core cylinders but weren’t the binocular profile.

Assuming it’s the binocular shape but either way I’d definitely hold in the 4 jaw chuck and bore out with a short rigid boring tool set in the toolpost.

This way also makes setting up easy- turn a basic adapter spigot to fit the tailstock chuck one end and the existing bore of the pocket at the other. Then offer it up to the 4 jaw held from the tailstock chuck in order to present it relatively true to the chuck for setting.
The usual fine truing around each jaw then applies to get the pocket perfectly centred for boring using the usual set-up-wobbler, centre finder, clock gauge etc.

A rigid/beefy set-up is essential even though it’s only a gnat’s whisker of a skim, as it’s still an interrupted cut and a slim boring bar will deflect into the pocket and make a mess.
A thick shank stubby borer like a Pentatec is perfect for this.
Don’t forget to use packing strips/blocks under the jaws, sized to the volume of any offset metal in order to balance the chuck- it’ll also prevent jaw marks all over it !

**Update-from memory iirc, you have a milling machine wylk, so hold in milling vice or T-bolted/ clamped on co-ordinate table and a spindle mounted boring-head to take out the pocket might be more your thing. A lot more faffing to set it up though !

Huw Eastwood

I meant to add that I’d definitely refrain from drilling it out, whether you go the milling machine or lathe route. Even a real quality precision twist drill like Gühring will deflect slightly into the other pocket and ‘spiral’ its way down. Plus the tip angle means it wouldn’t reach right to the bottom anyway.

A spindle mounted solid 3 or 4 flute slot cutter of exactly the right size would probably do it too, if a boring-head is not available to hand.
A similar end-mill might also work, but remember they are not intended to plunge cut into the work as here, they are for horizontal feed cutting around the outer edge.

wylk

Huw,

Thanks for the suggestions. I used to have a big mill and big lathe, but now am reduced to a Sherline mill and lathe. I’m not sure they’d have the rigidity called for but I will think about it; setup would indeed be fussy. I’ve also thought about turning a steel bar into a sort of broach (undersized) and try to scrape the hole and shave it to a larger diameter; it would need to be fairly sharp.

I agree about the drill/mill deflection. I would use either a single-point tool if the lock is chucked in the lathe, or possibly something like a Woodruff key cutter in a mill and the lock on a rotary table.

(I’m having a problem attaching images, antique-locks keeps asking me to log in at almost every single step regardless of what I’m doing).

wylk

The following images show the 83/45 body and its (lopsided) binocular-shaped receptacle, a KIK adapter kit, and a typical KIK cylinder.

(my login problem appears to have been caused by the “remember me” checkbox being unchecked on login)

Huw Eastwood

Wylk ,how about using a small fly-cutter. I recall the Sherline’s are small- i think very similar to the Peatol, so best holding the padlock stationary and spinning the cutter. Fly cutters are relatively easy to make but are available in all sizes and not too expensive.
In fact i think Sherline/Peatol made them specifically for their machines.

How about- if on mill set-up; padlock held on table (T-bolts & clamps) or milling vice, and then a mini fly-cutter either spindle mounted or held in collet/chuck to bore out the pocket.
Or, if lathe set-up, padlock held against angle plate on carriage (same t-bolts or vice set-up), and same fly-cutter in spindle taper or chuck.
Good luck I’m sure you’ll do it !

Huw Eastwood

The more I’ve thought of this wylk you’re better off just making one. All it needs is a stub of Ø½″ steel bar with a step turned down to suit however you’re holding it on the mill or lathe, chuck, collet or whatever you’re using.

The ½″ business end then needs an Ø⅛″ cross drilled hole diagonally at an angle, sized to suit an ⅛″ dowel of HSS or silver steel, which once ground serves as the tool bit.

Drill and tap a thread up the business end to suit a small socket screw to lock the tool bit in place and you’re almost done.
Grind a cutting edge on the tool bit- brass is easy as it needs no top rake, (which i think is called back or rear rake on your side of the pond) and you’re good to go..

Dimensions and geometry you’ll have to make suit the job in hand, as ½″ isn’t much smaller than the pocket bore and you’ll want the bit at an angle enough to clear the body for cutting, but also project past the tip, otherwise it won’t reach the bottom of the pocket.
You can buy them that small but probably $60-$80 upwards in your money.

Huw Eastwood

so what did you do after wylk and how did it go ?

wylk

Huw Eastwood wrote
so what did you do after wylk and how did it go ?

I thought about the lathe/mill solutions and decided they would be a lot of work. I’d have to find a way to solidly grasp the lock body, yet be able to align it translationally in two axes, and also align it angularly in two axes, to maintain the center of the bore from front to back. Taking very light cuts with a very sharp tool would be beneficial.

I think it would be a little easier to make a sort of circular scraping tool, a thin steel disc with sharp edges, mounted on a simple handle (even a wooden dowel would work). Then, use that to shave off a little of the bore at a time while test-fitting against the desired KIK cylinder.

So far, the only thing I have done is to order a Series 2 version of the Abus 83/45 in the hope that the factory made some adjustment that will allow it to accept KIK cylinders, as they claim in the advertisements and catalogs.

Meanwhile, I noticed an image on the Abus Store in Amazon, showing an 83/45 that is slightly broken. The plug covering body holes that are used to load the locking balls has fallen out. Assuming this is the “toe” side, I don’t think this causes any issues other than looking bad. But it was humorous to see a slightly broken lock being used in advertising.

[unknown]

wylk

Today I received a used Abus 83/45 with three keys (6 pins). The “pocket” for the cylinder is now about .01″ (.25 mm) bigger, and KIK cylinders actually fit as advertised. Problem solved.

There are several differences between the original and the Series 2, one of them is the addition of what appears to be an anti-bypass wafer. I was unaware these were susceptible to bypassing. So, that’s another reason to upgrade to a Series 2 (assuming it really is an anti-bypass wafer and actually works).